Excitement at watching LotR for very first time!

[channe]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

I always thought it was a Minbari thing, those grey robes. A thousand-year fashion tradition doesn't go away very quickly, such as the ascot/tie/type thing men wear.

In my opinion, what I envisioned is that Entil'zha DOES control the Rangers directly. But -- does Entil'zha really have enough time to go through ship manifests and discipline Rangers and make sure the cafeteria has enough food to serve all the Rangers on Tuzanor or keep track of fuel and do all the little piddling things that keep a fighting force running?

I think it's hard for us (and for me!) to devise a rankless society like that...

 

[Nancy]

Maybe the Ranger Council was trying to make itself more important than it actually was. Or maybe it needed to gain some respect, and what better way than to dress up like the Grey Council.

 

[hypatia]

I remember JMS's answer when the question came up. He was very clear about it. The Minbari created the Rangers and so they ran it the way they tended to run their administrations. Through a counsel that looks a lot like the Grey Counsel.

It's simply the way they went about organizing all of their major organizations. We do the same thing in our government. There is Federal level and there is State level and often County and City levels of government, too. For the most part, all are organized the same.

 

[KoshN]

I still don't know the full story of all the missing CGI. Is it gone forever, no hope of seeing the old Minbar again or anything? Also, if all the images were lost, did they just re-do the station or what?

See:

JMS Answers to My Questions About TLaDiS

JMS Answer to My Question About the TLaDiS CGI.

JMS Answer to My Question About the TLaDiS CGI #2

They didn't redo the station. In TLaDiS, the old CGI came from the files they gave to Sierra/Havas for the aborted Space Combat Flight Simulator "Into the Fire." That stuff is generally not good enough to be seen in close-ups on TV. Note how few frames of B5 we saw at the end, how far away we were, and how quickly the shrunken credits made it even harder to see the station. See TLaDiS - B5 Barely Rotating ... What bugs me is the smeary, oily, lower contrast look of the TLaDiS CGI as compared to the crisp look of the CGI in B5 and Crusade. It's almost like some of the CGI scenes in TLaDiS where shot with a "panty hose over the lens" effect. Ugh!

We saw Whitestars and other familiar ships only briefly and only in the distance. We also saw Minbari Nial fighters flying backwards (exactly how somebody not familiar with B5 might think they would fly). This leads me to believe that JMS didn't have much time to concentrate on TLaDiS at the time, or he's forgotten how Nials fly, or that this movie was a lower priority than his other projects at the time, or he no longer cares enough to get the details right and isn't checking stuff closely, or he has too much to do. I don't know which it is. However I did ask if time pressure was one of the problems and he denied it. JMS Re. TLaDiS and Time Pressure

With regard to the missing CGI, I get the impression that it's gone forever, and that if we're to see Minbari Sharlin Warcruisers, Whitestars, Nials, any of the Vorlon ships, any of the Shadow ships, and of the other races ships, the Excalibur, the Technomage ships, any of the planetscapes and cities ever again, they'll have to be re-created completely from scratch. Naturally, this will cost money and chances are they won't match what we had before. Hopefully, the differences won't be too jarring, but it's very doubtful that Warner Brothers will spend much (if any) money on this.

 

[KoshN]

So who was responsible for throwing away the millions of dollars worth of CGI?

Warner Brothers. Also, we don't know if it was thrown out on purpose, thrown out by mistake, lost, or they still have it and know where it is, but aren't admitting it. The official story is that they lost it. See in my post above, "JMS Answer to My Question About the TLaDiS CGI."

How was it allowed to happen?

Stupidity?
Shortsightedness?
Dishonesty?

All of the above?

...Who knows??? *shrug*

Does this mean its unlikely that any of the old B5 exteriors (Centauri Prime, Minbar, MarsDome etc) will ever be seen again in their original forms? (not that there's likely to be any new B5 stuff on TV anyway)

If any of the old CGI is ever seen again in any new footage, it will have to be remade completely from scratch. I hope if anybody does it, they're excellent counterfeiters, good enough to fool the fans.

 

[Droshalla]

This makes me feel indescribably terrible. Its an awful thought to think that I will never again see so many wonderful images unless it is on one of my old tapes or in my mind. It was a sad thought when it first seemed there would be no more B5 series', but now... even if there were any more episodes, spin-offs, TV Movies, Theatrical Films, they would not look the same.

I guess the only hope is a B5 combat sim. If they have all the CGI done and ready (as proved by the screenshots and trailers - which looked pretty darn good) then all we need is for someone (say Codemasters as the rumour goes) to buy it.

Also, I agree about the B5:LotR-TLaDiS effects looking "dirty". Every exterior shot seemed filled with a blue haze/cloud/nebula. There was one around Minbar, one in the Minbari sky and surrounding buildings, one around the station at the end... all of space was surrounded by this ominous blue cloud - it's taking over the universe!

And hyperspace... I liked the jump points from "A Call to Arms"/most of "Crusade" better (even if they were very similar to the new ones), and I think a happy medium needs to be reached between the inner hyperspace of LotR and the original - but then we never got a very wide angle of the Rangers hyperspace anyway. I also like Tuzanor a hell of a lot better than whatever Minbari city that was. Exterior of the Liandra was pretty good though.

Moving on from the CGI, did anyone else like that main titles sequence and the accompanying music? I sure did.

 

[Fas]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

also like Tuzanor a hell of a lot better than whatever Minbari city that was. Exterior of the Liandra was pretty good though.

*that* city was Tuzanor. The one we saw in the series was the capital, so apart from the planet shots there are no other visual "changes" to Minbar, to put it that way.

 

[KoshN]

This makes me feel indescribably terrible. Its an awful thought to think that I will never again see so many wonderful images unless it is on one of my old tapes or in my mind. It was a sad thought when it first seemed there would be no more B5 series', but now... even if there were any more episodes, spin-offs, TV Movies, Theatrical Films, they would not look the same.

...UNLESS they REMAKE the CGI. Granted, it's not likely that they'll do it, and it's less likely that they'll take the time and money to do it right, but it IS POSSIBLE. Remember, they could make what they need as they go along, as they did with Babylon 5 (the TV show).

Also, I agree about the B5:LotR-TLaDiS effects looking "dirty". Every exterior shot seemed filled with a blue haze/cloud/nebula. There was one around Minbar, one in the Minbari sky and surrounding buildings, one around the station at the end... all of space was surrounded by this ominous blue cloud - it's taking over the universe! [/b]

I think it's just how the new effects house wanted to do it, or maybe something to do with the change in software. I really disliked the new, smeary look.

And hyperspace... I liked the jump points from "A Call to Arms"/most of "Crusade" better (even if they were very similar to the new ones), and I think a happy medium needs to be reached between the inner hyperspace of LotR and the original - but then we never got a very wide angle of the Rangers hyperspace anyway.

I liked the hyperspace of B5 Season 5 and Crusade better than in B5:LotR, however JMS likes the new one better. See JMS Response to My Comments About TLaDiS


>I think hyperspace looked better in Lightwave. Also, the new jumppoints
>seem to persist much longer than usual, before collapsing.

Hyperspace is now *much* more complex than it was using lightwave, with more
levels. It was always meant to look pretty hellish, but we could never quite
pull it off with lightwave, it always looked 2d. This is more what I
originally had in mind.

Exterior of the Liandra was pretty good though.

Agreed. That was one of the best parts of TLaDiS.

Moving on from the CGI, did anyone else like that main titles sequence and the accompanying music? I sure did.

Didn't like it and didn't hate it. It was OK.

 

[Droshalla]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

*that* city was Tuzanor. The one we saw in the series was the capital, so apart from the planet shots there are no other visual "changes" to Minbar, to put it that way.

Now, I may be in error, but I understood that the Ranger training facilities were in Tuzanor ("The City of Sorrows") characterised by the huge waterfall where Entil'Zha Sinclair walked in "War Without End, Part I". I believe Delenn mentioned it was Tuzanor in "Learning Curve" and also the HQ for the Interstellar Alliance was also in Tuzanor.

Now the Capital City is Yedor from the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". I don't believe we ever saw Yedor in the original B5 series. Therefore, the Minbar exteriors in LotR could have been Yedor, but not Tuzanor.

Perhaps someone else could help out and confirm?

 

[channe]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

It was Tuzanor, yes.

Remember that the Minbari homeworld is rebuilding from a pretty devastating civil war. Remember that their society is changing at rocket speed. It's only natural that some of their architecture would change, too, during the rebuilding.

And, I believe what you saw in particular was the Ranger facility, which being racially ecumenical would have taken architectural hints from other civilizations in the Alliance.

 

[Malakian82]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

A lot of discussion seems to be about the cgi in LotR looking different than what we're accustomed too. Of course, a great deal of this outrage is because of the fact that the original cgi for b5 somehow *disappeared*. But forgetting that for a minute (only an minute mind you!!!)......

....the appearances and looks of television shows and movies change over time, and the special effects are changing with them. Were is it stated that you can never change the special effects of a show? Wouldn't that be terrible? Star Trek Enterprise would look the same as the original series thirty years ago, Star Wars episode II would still only be using puppets, models and firecrackers, and you could keep building on this list on and on.

You accept the new look, and move on. So why not with lotr?

(but of course, I am also outraged by the throwing away of the original Babylon station and everything with it - forget sobbing over Sleeping in Light, the destruction of the station has become even more permanent)

 

[KoshN]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

....the appearances and looks of television shows and movies change over time, and the special effects are changing with them. Were is it stated that you can never change the special effects of a show? Wouldn't that be terrible? Star Trek Enterprise would look the same as the original series thirty years ago, Star Wars episode II would still only be using puppets, models and firecrackers, and you could keep building on this list on and on.

You accept the new look, and move on. So why not with lotr?

Because the new look of B5:LotR is inferior. The changes between B5 Season 5 and Crusade (jumpgate spark effect, the new look of hyperspace), bothered me for a little while, but I'll never get used to the B5:LotR look in which some of the CGI looks like it was filmed through a filter that was smeared with vasaline or through an oil bath.

Gone are the days of tack sharp B5 CGI. The new rage is soft focus.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

I dunno dude, sure that picture looks a little fuzzy, but it seemed clearer on my TV. They re-ran B5:LotR today and a LOT of the CGI in that movie I thought was VERY sharp and crisp. Colorful too.

 

[KoshN]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

I dunno dude, sure that picture looks a little fuzzy, but it seemed clearer on my TV. They re-ran B5:LotR today and a LOT of the CGI in that movie I thought was VERY sharp and crisp. Colorful too.

That's from an SVHS SP. I wish I would have remembered they were on today. Could have gotten them on DVD-R SP. Then from the DVDs, I could have gotten even better screencaps. If you recorded it, go look at this part near the end, but you'll have to be fast. B5 was on screen for a very short amount of time. Are you sure it didn't look like this?


Just curious, did today's movies have the Scare Tactics popups on them?

 

[Recoil]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

I dont know I just remember B5 being on for a quick second. I was commenting more on the overall quality of the CGI throughout the movie, which I thought was excellent.

 

[KoshN]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

I dont know I just remember B5 being on for a quick second. I was commenting more on the overall quality of the CGI throughout the movie, which I thought was excellent.

In some places the CGI was very good (the Liandra model), but in others, the backgrounds looked downright hazy (Minbar from orbit, B5 against that blue nebula, etc.). Compare that to the blue nebula we see in the Season 2 opening credits on the DVDs. Remember it going from the nebula to being a reflection in the helmet visor? It looked pure and had saturated color. Very nice. Now look at B5:LotR. See the difference?

 

[LightNZ]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

just a style change

 

[FlipperPA]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

The Scare Tactics bull$#!+ was on again. Ugh. It was even worse than with Crusade this time, because since the movies were being aired in 16:9, they put the same size pixil animation over the top of a 16:9 broadcast. (Same amount of pixils over many fewer pixils - avoiding the black bars at the bottom) Since I was watching this on my 16:9 TV, the damn ads took up over 50% of the height of the screen! Ugh!

Go to hell, sci-fi. Take Brenda Walsh with you.

-Tim

 

[KoshN]

Re: Excitement at watching LotR for very first tim

The Scare Tactics bull$#!+ was on again. Ugh. It was even worse than with Crusade this time, because since the movies were being aired in 16:9, they put the same size pixil animation over the top of a 16:9 broadcast. (Same amount of pixils over many fewer pixils - avoiding the black bars at the bottom) Since I was watching this on my 16:9 TV, the damn ads took up over 50% of the height of the screen! Ugh!

50% ? A new record.