Elizar: Evil Murderer, or Visionary?

[Valen2k1]

I didn't say 'inconvienient'. I said "immoral". Elizar's crusade (pun not intended) cannot be likened at ALL to Sheridan's.

Sheridan- Fought to free Earth from a tyrannical, oppressive government, not to increase Babylon 5's influence or his own status.

Elizar- Fought to lead the Technomages and make them more powerful.

Sheridan's war was not self serving. He had no desire to rule Earth when it was over.

Elizar, while wanting to better the mages, also wanted to rule them.

I don't think comparing Elizar to Sheridan is at all accurate.

Elizar and Londo are a much a better comparison.

Both wanted to restore their respective people to greatness, and place themselves on top of the totem pole while they were at it, and both thought they could play the Shadows against the middle for thier own interests.

However Elizar, to me, comes across as as power crazed- Londo, while he craved power, was not totally consumed by it, and recognized events were out of control, and even tried to turn the Centauri back from the path they were on.

Also, Londo had a monkey on his back (so to speak) later on, and was not in control of his actions.

That said, I think way too much is being read into it. Elizar was the VILLIAN. While he may have been a sympathetic character to some, he was still intended to be the heavy.

EDIT- Fixin' typos. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Loadhan]

Yeah ... Elizar even had the classic villian goatee. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[hypatia]

I think Valen 2k1 put it pretty well. Elizar and Londo might be a better comparison, only Elizar never questioned what he considered to be his destiny. Not to free the technomages, but to lead them as Shadow allies.

Sheridan could have had it pretty easy if he has just been content to feed his pride and gain personal power. After having pulled off that victory against the Minbari during the war, he would have been a natural to Clarke's anti-alien-influence campaign. IF he had only been interested in his personal power.

I think that is undoubtedly what Elizar would have done. He would have rationalized joining Clarke's side.

 

[GShans]

I have all these story ideas going through my head of what woulda happened if Sheridan woulda sided with Clark, they're great in that dark, twisted mentality i have inside me /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

[hypatia]

Which angle would you take on such a story? That he becomes hard and embittered and goes along with Clarke 100%? Or that he still rebels, but from closer to the center, so to speak?

I can't imagine Sheridan killing civilians on Clarke's whim. Or approving of it. If he had sided with Clarke, he would (I assume) be higher up in power than someone like Lockley (who was fortunate enough to avoid getting her hands dirty). I

 

[GShans]

did you not finish your last post?

 

[hypatia]

Yes, I wonder how I managed to do that. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Anyhow, I was just saying:
I don't see Sheridan just sitting by quietly if he were part of the Clarke forces. And I don't see him being as far removed from the decion makers as Lockley was. I just don't see Sheridan becoming Clarke's yes-man. His entire personality would have to have changed radically.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't think He wanted all the power for himself.

[/quote] Trust me, the Shadows would never give anyone a significant part of their power. If they exhibited any sign of care and responsibility, that was it. Elizar's vision of technomage glory was the Shadows' vision of glorious pawns on their chess board.

If he wanted no power, he should have avoided power. Why not study the tech, instead of seeking assistance from Shadows? Why not ally himself with those who backed neither Shadows nor Vorlons? Surely he wanted power. He found that Shadows handed out power for seemingly cheap prices.

He sought power, and gained power. Unlike some who gained power honorably, used it with care, wisdom and doubt... he obtained it with manipulation, lies, threats and violence. He used it without doubt, nor any care about others.

Perhaps he considered his goals good. Who cares? Those who died received no good from technomage glory. To justify what he did, he must have considered technomages superior to those who he sacrificed, and technomages loyal to him superior to those independent.

Clearly he considered himself right. Most people consider themselves right. Delenn also considered herself right, the moment when she ordered the Minbari counterattack. However, most people also doubt if they are right. Because they don't consider themselves superior or infallible, they admit the possibility that they might be wrong.

Elizar must have considered himself superior or infallible, more deservant of ruling, less deservant of getting killed. Such a course destroyed countless lives, and threatened to destroy even more. You might say that the course pursued by Delenn also destroyed countless lives.

Where is the difference? Delenn accidentally stumbled on such a course, doubted and turned away. She stopped the war she had started. Her later course defended what the Shadow war threatened. Not wishing to forcibly take something, but prevent someting from being taken, prevent harm from being done.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
He wanted to make the Mages something more than a legend, a force strong in the galaxy.

[/quote] Where is the good in legends? Where is the good in strength? Legends are good if they create wonder, not fear. Strength is good if used to assist, not destroy. Without purpose or direction, strength is meaningless. People give it meaning. If people give it harmful direction, I say that strength is inefficient and wrong.

Insanity does not enter into this. Someone capable of planning, maintaining his course with hard work... is perfectly sane. He may be mistaken, possibly evil, but sane. He is also responsible for his actions. He should consider and doubt whether his choices are right. Elizar failed that part, and headed exactly the wrong way.

Definitely a believable and vivid example of human nature, illustrating the need for self-doubt, as every being is errant, and none infallible. Spoo make mistakes. Humans make mistakes. Shadows make mistakes. Only the scale changes.