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Elizar: Evil Murderer, or Visionary?
- Thread starter Elizar
- Start date
hypatia
Regular
Elizar, here is one of many websites you can learn more about Mao Tse Tung.
http://www.geocities.com/franith/
http://www.geocities.com/franith/
hypatia
Regular
Mao was the one who ended up in charge after the Chinese Revolution. Yes, a serious piece of crap. I don't know if Mao or Lenin are now considered the largests mass-murderers known. I think it wa thought to be one of them the last I took a history class (I admit, many years ago).
Anyhow, my point was you can call a Hitler or a Mao or a Lenin a "visionary". OR you can call him an evil man. Take your pick. But I must say that the Elizar that was created for the Technomage books was clearly one who would stop at nothing to achieve what you call his "vision".
That's why I brought up the big 3:
Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
Anyhow, my point was you can call a Hitler or a Mao or a Lenin a "visionary". OR you can call him an evil man. Take your pick. But I must say that the Elizar that was created for the Technomage books was clearly one who would stop at nothing to achieve what you call his "vision".
That's why I brought up the big 3:
Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
hypatia
Regular
Gangster, my ignorance of history is embarassing. I do recognize the name, "Pol Pot". I never saw the killing fields. But I did hear about the final unfortunate end for one of the key characters. IIRC. He was killed in the USA, wasn't he?
Anyhow, I don't mean to say that the character Elizar ever murdered as many people as these mass-murderers. I simply meant (To our poster Elizar) that they all held the same philosophy. "I'm sure I'm right to the point where I will do anything to make it happen".
I'm and ex-catholic. But I can at least respect the legend of Jesus for the nonviolent nature of his "way".
I'm afraid your character Elizar from the books just was more of the Mao than the Jesus, you know what I mean? Elizar was no Ghandi, he was more of a Hitler, or a Pol Pot or a Stalin or a Mao Tse Tung. He felt killing was not a matter of importance as long as his immediate goal was being met.
That is why the Shadows found him to be an excellent ally. THey knew how to use this mentality.
Anyhow, I don't mean to say that the character Elizar ever murdered as many people as these mass-murderers. I simply meant (To our poster Elizar) that they all held the same philosophy. "I'm sure I'm right to the point where I will do anything to make it happen".
I'm and ex-catholic. But I can at least respect the legend of Jesus for the nonviolent nature of his "way".
I'm afraid your character Elizar from the books just was more of the Mao than the Jesus, you know what I mean? Elizar was no Ghandi, he was more of a Hitler, or a Pol Pot or a Stalin or a Mao Tse Tung. He felt killing was not a matter of importance as long as his immediate goal was being met.
That is why the Shadows found him to be an excellent ally. THey knew how to use this mentality.
M
Mike G
Guest
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't know if Mao or Lenin are now considered the largests mass-murderers known.
[/quote]
Lenin? I think that Stalin Killed way more people then Lenin, because Lenin was only in power for a few years.
I don't know if Mao or Lenin are now considered the largests mass-murderers known.
[/quote]
Lenin? I think that Stalin Killed way more people then Lenin, because Lenin was only in power for a few years.
hypatia
Regular
Oops. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif MikeG caught me with my pants down (so to speak, and outside the NC-17 Forum, I might add /forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif ).
I am so sorry. It is late on Friday night. Yes, yes, yes, I meant Stalin, not Lenin.
Many apologizings. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif
I am so sorry. It is late on Friday night. Yes, yes, yes, I meant Stalin, not Lenin.
Many apologizings. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
He didn't kill anywhere close to the same amount as them.
[/quote]
Well, Elizar did request the Shadows to attack Soom. Soom may or may not have been attacked during the Shadow War anyway ... but under Elizar's Shadow-granted command, thousands if not more were killed as the Shadows whiped out many cities - and there was absolutely no strategic or political value in doing it. So it's debatable how many he killed compared to those of Earth's 20th century mass murders.
Here's a question ... do we think the Vorlons were taking out planets the techno-mages had held as their Places of Power? Maybe not since they had (or claimed to) removed all of themselves from those places ...
He didn't kill anywhere close to the same amount as them.
[/quote]
Well, Elizar did request the Shadows to attack Soom. Soom may or may not have been attacked during the Shadow War anyway ... but under Elizar's Shadow-granted command, thousands if not more were killed as the Shadows whiped out many cities - and there was absolutely no strategic or political value in doing it. So it's debatable how many he killed compared to those of Earth's 20th century mass murders.
Here's a question ... do we think the Vorlons were taking out planets the techno-mages had held as their Places of Power? Maybe not since they had (or claimed to) removed all of themselves from those places ...
Mike G wrote: "Lenin? I think that Stalin Killed way more people then Lenin, because Lenin was only in power for a few years."
You are right. While Lenin was responsible for killing much of the ruling class of his day, and capitalists whom he considered enemies of the people, it was Stalin who was responsible for the bloody purges of the 1930s that killed millions of Soviet Union citizens.
You are right. While Lenin was responsible for killing much of the ruling class of his day, and capitalists whom he considered enemies of the people, it was Stalin who was responsible for the bloody purges of the 1930s that killed millions of Soviet Union citizens.
hypatia
Regular
I think he could be an evil murderer AND still have what he considers "heart".
Hitler was a vegetarian, you know! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Couldn't stand the idea of slaughtering innocent creatures. /forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif (Actually, rolls eyes just doesn't do that one justice.)
Hitler was a vegetarian, you know! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Couldn't stand the idea of slaughtering innocent creatures. /forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif (Actually, rolls eyes just doesn't do that one justice.)
Shaal Mayan
Regular
Elizar is an evil murderer who will kill anybody to achieve power at all costs
It could be argued that Hitler didn't want power for HIMSELF, that he did it for Germany.
But that probably ISN'T true.
Elizar wanted a great future for the Mages, yes, but he went about it in a wrong, immoral way.
He's just like all of these other historical nutjobs mentioned, "I'm going to do what I think is right, no matter what the cost. I can't POSSIBLY be wrong." Arrogant, to say the very least.
He cast any kind of value system aside in favor of his own agenda. His only "value" was that he wanted power for the Technomages.
So, maybe not an evil murderer, but definetly a CRAZY murderer.
And quit referring to yourself and the Elizar in the books in the same tense, it's just creepy. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
But that probably ISN'T true.
Elizar wanted a great future for the Mages, yes, but he went about it in a wrong, immoral way.
He's just like all of these other historical nutjobs mentioned, "I'm going to do what I think is right, no matter what the cost. I can't POSSIBLY be wrong." Arrogant, to say the very least.
He cast any kind of value system aside in favor of his own agenda. His only "value" was that he wanted power for the Technomages.
So, maybe not an evil murderer, but definetly a CRAZY murderer.
And quit referring to yourself and the Elizar in the books in the same tense, it's just creepy. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
yes, but he went about it in a wrong, immoral way.
[/quote] The inconvient way? Where has this been said. To John Sheridan after freeing Earth?
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
And quit referring to yourself and the Elizar in the books in the same tense, it's just creepy.
[/quote]
But its so much fun!!! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
yes, but he went about it in a wrong, immoral way.
[/quote] The inconvient way? Where has this been said. To John Sheridan after freeing Earth?
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
And quit referring to yourself and the Elizar in the books in the same tense, it's just creepy.
[/quote]
But its so much fun!!! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
