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Dating Issues b/w Earth and Minbar

N

Nathan

Member
The following is by Doctor Gonzo under the subject 'Subtle Foretelling' in reaction to a "correction" I thought was valid regarding when (in the B5 story line) David Sheridan receives the urn, and all the other big events that fall out from it.

Minbari years are faster than Earth years.
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I would like to draw out, for a separate discussion, this whole issue because I have been thinking about it for quite a while.

The questions to consider are:

1.) How much of a time difference is between Earth and Minbar?

2.) In what Earth year does David Sheridan receive the urn? David is supposed to receive the urn on his sixteenth birthday from 'Objects at Rest'.

3.) How old in Earth years is David when he receives the urn?

I shall now provide the facts for my confusion.

1.) In Peter David's book, ' Out of the Darkness' J.S. clearly says on page 126 that:

You're (David) 'sixteen' on a technicality. Minbari years are shorter than Earth years. By Earth standards, you've still got a ways to go.
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That is very a very straightforward dating convention; and sounds exactly like what Doctor Gonzo said above. Basically, David is younger than sixteen Earth years. The author, Peter David, however, never (to my recollection) tells us in the books what the time difference is between Earth and Minbar. Therefore, we do not have an approximation of John's last sentence.

Fortunately (or unfortunately given your math ability) Terry Jones (more on him later) draws the time difference out from Babylon Squared to be one Minbari cycle to be 16 Earth months (if I understand him correctly) :) Does a Minbari cycle mean a Minbari year? Because if so, then it appears to contradict what Sheridan is says. I do, however, believe I do not understand Terry correctly because later on his example of how his timeline (which has changed since publication in the B5 magazine) has Delenn being younger in the number of Minbari cycles than the number of Earth years if the commentator in 'Deconstruction of Falling Stars' meant 140 human years. Check it out at, Terry's Introduction

2.)The answers on their own seem quite straight forward - 2278 and 16 Earth years old.

The date (2278) is given or implied in the following:

The B5 movie 'In the Beginning'; Londo said in 2258 that G'Kar and himself will strangle each other in 20 years; in Terry Jones' chronology (which jms has declared cannon); in most of jms postings; and some times in the defunked B5 magazine.

However, I have also seen the year 2277 reported in:

The B5 magazine at various times; in some jms postings; and especially on the Internet.

The jms postings where he actually typed 2277 I believe are mistakes by him. I have never understood the rationale behind the date 2277 for these events.

Peter David in 'Out of the Darkness' maybe strikes some sort of middle ground by having Londo's diary (dated November 29, 2277 (Earth date)) account his reaction to David's capture, and then all the other main events play out in January of 2278. Although, as some long time B5 fans already know some of the dates / time information in both the first and second books by Peter David is sometimes questionable and can sometimes just be plain wrong.

So, are there any thoughts on this?
 
I was just thinking of this issue myself, in a different context. When Delenn and G'Kar talk about the last Shadow War being "a thousand years ago," what time system are they using?

If it's Human years, the last Shadow Was, by our chronology, AD 1260. But if it's Minbari years, it would be later.

Or perhaps we shouldn't take it so literally and simply read it to be "a long time."
 
We have to remember that when aliens are speaking on the show, we hear English (at least I do :)). They are not speaking English, however. They are either speaking their own language (to another of their same species) or Interlag (to one of a different species). So when Delenn (a Minbari) and G'Kar (a Narn) speak of 1000 years ago, they may be using their own time tables, but when it's translated into English for our ears to understand in the present, the closest equivalent to the length of time they're talking about happens to be 1000 Earth years. G'Kar may actually be saying 1400 Narn cycles ago and Delenn may actually be saying 1600 Minbar cycles ago (just random numbers), but when we hear it, it comes out as 1000 Earth years. This has always been my take on it anyway.

Addendum: I always thought it funny that when Londo is telling his story to the children in "In The Beginning," that he says it was so many EARTH years ago. This always bothered me since these children probably wouldn't have any concept of "Earth years." But after a while, I realized that he was speaking Centauri, not English. The English equivalent of whatever amount of time he told them (translated for my benefit) was what I heard - even though it wasn't exactly what Londo said.
 
I think the "common tongue" of the B5 universe is spelled "interLAC". (Presumably a contraction of "INTERspecies Pan-GaLACtic" language or something along those lines.)

When speaking to another Narn, G'Kar would doubtless calculate time in terms of Narn years. When speaking with Delenn both he and she would presumably use the planetary year associated with whatever common language they are speaking. (G'Kar speaks a little Minbari in the 2240s, and has probably worked to improve his fluency in the time before he arrived on B5.)

Delenn probably knows the languages of all the major races. G'Kar would have been forced to learn Centauri, whereas it would be a point of pride among the Centauri not to learn Narn - although I suspect Vir can get by in it and the intelligence services would need Narn speakers. But I suspect that for convenience sake a good deal of business on B5, diplomatic and commercial, is conducted in English. Since every race aboard the station has diplomatic relations and commercials ties with Earth, but not necessarily with all the others, it seems likely that all of them have English as one of their languages, even if no two of them have a single other language in common.

On Earth this was the case with French for a very long time, it was the default language of diplomacy. Today English is the international language of commerce, diplomacy and technology.

And just as the world is used to dating historical events based on a Common Era standard that was local and religious in order, and determing the time of day based on a standard time scheme originally devised to make sense out of railroad timetables and avoid train collisions, so it seems reasonable that the aliens aboard B5 would learn to translate their years into Earth years, and therefore have a common system for dating events when talking with people from other planets.

As for the overall dating within the B5 saga -

Ultimately it is impossible to date all events accurately to the day, often not to the month, and sometimes not to the year. This is because JMS himself was not nearly as meticulous about such things as his fans are. :) He just never worked everything out in that kind of detail for his own purposes, was perfectly willing to contradict himself when he got a better idea later, and didn't really care all that much about such details. Plus which, addings and subtractings not Zathras's strength, so JMS sometimes got his sums wrong and wrote dialogue that put events in the wrong year. Add to this the fact that somebody gave Peter David a chronology that was off by a full year and nobody caught the mistake and you realize that we're never going to be able to arrive at a single "true" chronology.

Regards,

Joe
 
To add to the confusion... Interlac *may* (or may not) include a measurement system, perhaps even a reference point of time.

Finally, Interlac appears to have either versions or levels of complexity. Perhaps something for machines and something else for biological entities... or different versions marking its development... or something else?

Either way... I seem to recall (possibly incorrectly) that the type of Interlac generally used in personal exchanges between humanoids is Interlac 3.
 
The problem comes in when Delenn speaks to other Minbari (such as the GC) and uses 'years' rather than cycles. JMS tended to use the terms interchangably, resulting in much confusion when trying to figure dates, ages, etc.

Throw that base eleven in there and things get really, really bad. :D

I've finally just decided that JMS is good at many things...but math ain't one of them.

V/R
John
 
The problem comes in when Delenn speaks to other Minbari (such as the GC) and uses 'years' rather than cycles.
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Well, Minbar presumably circles its sun at a more-or-less fixed rate and thus has a "year". We don't know that the Minbari years are the same a Minbari Cycles. Maybe Minbari Cycle is a two-year period that conicides with festivals and the like, much as an "olympiad" was (until ingnorant broadcasters stared using it incorrectly and then the rulse changed) the four-year interval between celebrations of the Olympic games.

And, again, we're listening to a translation of Minbari into English. Maybe they have two words, one corresponding to year and one to "cycle" and different Minbari prefer different ones.

The real-world reason is that for both Minbari and Humans JMS had time units referred to as "cycles" to give it a more science fictiony feel (with Human using "cycles" to refer to some kind of base 10 time measurement system.) But he decided that it would be too confusing and too technical to translate these into "normal" time so he pretty much dropped both ideas. ("Grail" has the only reference to "cycles" as the time-keeping system on the station. JMS decide it was just bad, but there was no time or more to loop the offending lines or reshoot the scenes.)

Regards,

Joe
 
...addings and subtractings not Zathras's strength,
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HEY! There's no need for personal attacks!

Sure, I have some problems with long division - WHO DOESN'T?! I've just learned that if I wear flip-flops a lot then my toes are readily accessible for counting. :)
 
Ultimately it is impossible to date all events accurately to the day, often not to the month, and sometimes not to the year. This is because JMS himself was not nearly as meticulous about such things as his fans are. He just never worked everything out in that kind of detail for his own purposes, was perfectly willing to contradict himself when he got a better idea later, and didn't really care all that much about such details. Plus which, addings and subtractings not Zathras's strength, so JMS sometimes got his sums wrong and wrote dialogue that put events in the wrong year.
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While I *do* generally agree that not every event in the B5 universe be accurately dated. I think chronology is interesting! My post only referred to what I see as a contradiction between two generally trustworthy sources. My purpose in creating the thread was to see if the larger B5 fan base see something that I do not.

However, I do agree with Jones' introduction that enough information is present throughout the show to conjecture with certain races.

As to the main example I brought up - I have figured it out and can now purpose a solution to the problem for any future republications of the book (doubtful, but one can hope).

Terry's calculation (see original post) is based upon the following quote made by the most prominent member of the Gray Council (other than Delenn) in 'Babylon Squared'. He who has no name says,

Ten cycles it has been since our people have had a leader
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The fact is that he is speaking during the Earth year 2258 and Dukhat died in the Earth year 2245. Therefore, the Minbari have been in morning for 13 Earth years. From this we can find out (assuming that the difference is intentional) how many Earth years equal one Minbari cycle (or years). Divide 13 by 10 to get 1.3. This number is the difference between the time on Earth in relation to Minbar. In other words, 16 Earth months are one Minbari cycle. Therefore, our planet (in the B5 universe) rotates around the Sun a bit faster. Using 1.3, we can multiply any number given in Minbari cycles to find out how many Earth years have passed (and divide to find out Earth to Minbari). Hence, Terry's two variations on Delenn's age in 'Deconstruction of Falling Stars'.

What impact does this have on the text in 'Out of Darkness'? It is probably a typo. I say that because, if Sheridan spoke about David being 'sixteen' in Earth years, but still having a ways to go in Minbari years the sentence would sense. As the text is in the book (see original post) it means that while David maybe 16 in Minbari years he would be 22 in Earth years. Not only would the change be technicality correct, but since David has spent almost all his life on Minbar he would only be 12 Minbari years old. This age would probably mean more to him and Earth years would be something special. I do not know if this proposed change would have any other impact on the book than just this one piece of dialog.

In response to Kosh Fan's question about if we should take Delenn's statement to G'Kar about when the last Shadow War was, literally. I think so, because Delenn has said other times that the 1,000 is in Earth years. Also, if we really are operating on the assumption that all the dates that are inserted on the screen are in Earth years then WWE part II clearly establishes Sinclair traveled back though time to arrive "a thousand years ago" from 2260. At the very least, we should think of it the statement as a rough approximation, not infer that that number in completely useless. Please note that whole issue of different timing conventions are invoked within the context of the story (or in Terry's case some postings of jms) and I am not proposing (nor do I think Terry is either) that we reconsider every date in the story. :LOL:

Add to this the fact that somebody gave Peter David a chronology that was off by a full year and nobody caught the mistake ...
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I have not heard that one. Can you please explain more Joe? Were Peter David's notes +1 year or -1 year? I would not think all the dates are that far off, although, in certain places that would make sense.
 
Nathan, your hypothesis has brought a very plausible answer to a question that has bugged me for years. In "Deconstruction of Falling Stars," one of the professors being interviewed in 2362 admits that Minbari are generally longer-lived than humans, but then goes on to state that the record for the oldest Minbari is 120 years. This has never made sense since the record for the oldest human is over 120 years (I think heard on the radio the other day that there's a 126 year-old person who has now set the record). The professor's statement makes a whole lot more sense if he's speaking in terms of Minbari years and if Minbari years are longer than Earth years. It was stated that she was around 140 years old in 2362. If we assume that the professor is using Minbari years and that a Minbari year equals 1.3 Earth years, then Delenn was 182 Earth-years in age when she showed up in their studio. Now I can better understand why they were so amazed to see her!
 
I actually don't think JMS worked it out in the level of detail that you're going to, at least not in this particular episode. I simply think he had so many details swimming around in his head when he wrote DoFS that he screwed up his math. Why would an ISN broadcast by humans intended primarily for humans give an age in Minbari years? IMO, they'd have said Delenn was 182 years old if that was how old she was. Joe's answers to age questions in his forum posts were always nebulous and varied depending on when he was asked...but I don't think he ever indicated that the B5-era Delenn was as far along as her eighties.

DoFS was a hastily-written episode thrown into the breach created when S5 was picked up and SiL had to be moved. For that reason, I wouldn't take any numbers thrown around in that episode at much more than face value.

I'm afraid that the Babylonian calendar is never going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction without us finding the Straczetta Stone. :)

V/R
John
 
IIRC, that wasn't an ISN broadcast, but an academic broadcast for students at colleges and universities around the world to watch and take part in. If you're holding a discussion with people on a higher academic level (it seemed like a broadcast that was probably suited a post-grad. level audience), then you can make some assumptions about what your audience knows and you can use language and figures that the average person wouldn't quite understand.

I agree that it still doesn't make sense that humans broadcasting to humans wouldn't use human chronology, but it's the only way I can rectify the numbers within the context of the story. Sure, there's always the "someone screwed up the writing/production" aspect, but the fact that the mistake was caught on celluloid means that it's something I have to deal with in the context of the story (just the way my mind works, I guess :) ). I think we've found a plausible answer in the "longer Minbari year" loophole.
 
In "Deconstruction of Falling Stars," one of the professors being interviewed in 2362 admits that Minbari are generally longer-lived than humans, but then goes on to state that the record for the oldest Minbari is 120 years. This has never made sense since the record for the oldest human is over 120 years
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1) JMS may not have been aware of this and figure the oldest humans still kicked shortly after hitting 100. 2) When JMS wrote the episode the documented record for human longevity was probably lower. (You're 126 year-old, for instance, would have been a sprightly 119, and the media might well not have known about him or her. :))

"Straczetta Stone"

:LOL:

I love it. :)

Regards,

Joe
 
The univerity tutorial was on 2 January 2362, that is 100 Earth years after Sheidan and Delenn return to Babylon 5. This implies that Delenn was 40 when she got married.
 
One little snippet from the first season. One of the later episodes.

When Lennier is telling Londo his life story in the bar, he says something along the lines of 'In my eleventy fifth year.' 115?

Also Draal jokes at one point some thing like, 'Not even if I live to be a thousand and one.'

I'm working from memory so I hope I got the quotes about right. Does this dating indicate that jms had the Minbari living much longer than humans originally, or are Minbari years about ten times shorter?
 
When Lennier is telling Londo his life story in the bar, he says something along the lines of 'In my eleventy fifth year.' 115?
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I'm given to understand that the Minbari count with base-eleven, unlike us who count base-ten. Now, I'm not anywhere near proficient with counting in nonbase-ten methods, but I think eleventy-five is equivalent to our sixteen.

Eleventy-five being 15 or 1 eleven plus 5 ones, which equals sixteen. For comparison, in base-ten counting, 15 is 1 ten plus 5 ones.
 
I seem to reacll that Lennier's reference is to The Third Fane of Chodomo, the temple to which he belongs and which has served with honor for several hundred years, or some other external thing, and not a reference to himself personally. I'd have dig out the right episode and review the dialogue to be sure. Lennier is certainly not anything like 100 years old - either by the Earth or Minbari calendars.

And it seems to me that Draal's reference is the opposite of literal - he's talking about how he could barely scratch the surface of knowledge about the Great Machine. I could aslo say that I couldn't learn all the machine's secrets "if I live to be a thousand and one" (one year past the ordinary cliche of "a thousand") without implying that the normal human lifespan is 1,000 years. On the contrary, I would be saying that even in the unlikely event that I did live to be a thousand and one that I still wouldn't have enough time to learn all that the machine could teach me.

Still, Draal may have picked "a thousand and one" rather than "a hundred" (as a contemporary Human might) or "five hundred" because he might reasonably expect to reach the age of 500. Not because he's a Minbari (and an elderly one at that), but because he has become the guardian of the Great Machine. The last such, Varn, lived 500 years after he took up his post. (And we have no idea how old he was when he did or how long his species usually lived.) So "a thousand and one" may have struck him as an unlikely exageration beyond the five hundred that he might very well attain.

Regards,

Joe
 
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