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Catherine Sakai-Spoilers

D

Deviot

Beyond the rim
ok I was wondering does anyone know what happened to Catherine Sakai in the past?

Did she undergo the transformation as well as Sinclair to become Minbari?

We know that She got sucked through the time rift and Sinclair found her in the past and they married..but I was thinking if she stayed in Human form what would the Minbari think of Valens such close relationship with her procreation etc.

And if she did stay human that means that The Minbari would have known somthing about Humans before meeting them again 1000 years later...I mean some records would have survived you woulkd think I mean babylon 4 surevivied floating around for 1000 years before being to badly damaged and beging sucked down to a planet by it's gravitiy.

Did Sinclair find her as soon as he arrived the in past? I had a feeling even thought Catherine went to the past before Sinclair she actually arrived in time after Sinclair arrived back 1000 years..

So basically does anyone know anything of what happened to Catherine in the past?

I know her trip yto the past was in the book To dream in the city of sorrows..and I wonder what happened to the ship she went back in time with it was rather advanced even for the Minbari as it was Vorlon/Minbari hybrid ship..although it was one man ship...

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>...but I was thinking if she stayed in Human form what would the Minbari think of Valens such close relationship with her procreation etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If she remained in Human form she wouldn't have been able to procreate with Sinclair/Valen. The Human and Minbari reproductive systems are different (as Delenn finds out.) Also cross-species breeding is impossible without serious genetic engineering. (G'Kar offer to Lyta of a "direct mating" is his way of getting her into the sack - his personal perversion being Human females - not a serious attempt to produce a child.)

JMS has said that Valen's marriage was something of a scandal, but has not elaborated, and he has never specifically identified Sakai as Valen's mate, although the clues seem very clear.

If Sakai was Valen's wife and the mother of his children, she had to have become Minbari. It is quite possible that no other Minbari ever saw her, since we don't know where and when she was found. Once he located her, Valen could have sent Zathras to her on whichever planet she crashed on with the Chrysalis device and the triluminary. The scandal may simply have been due to Valen's marrying a Minbari with no known family or clan affiliations. Or maybe her independent ways offended the Minbari, who are very conformist.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Funny, I posted a topic discussion some time back, titled Who was Valen's Wife?. It might still be there in the archives somewhere. It asked pretty much the same question, and whether the woman Valen/Sinclair married, was Catherine Sakai?
I think that it probably was - or maybe, I should like to say that I hope it was. God knows Sinclair deserved some happiness after all he had been through.
I'm making wild assumptions here, but I think it might have happened something like this. As someone suggested, Catherine might well have crashed on some alien planet after falling through the time-rift. Eventually, Sinclair found her. You can bet your boots that she would be more than a little surprised to find that her fiance was now Minbari! Her choices would have been rather limited. Going back to her own time would be a very definite no-no. Going back to Earth wouldn't be an option, either. Even if she could find a way of getting back home, the Earth of the 13th century would be far more alien and hostile to her than anywhere else. That would leave three options. Suicide, spending the rest of her life in hiding, or changing into a Minbari.
Catherine would never have accepted the first option, and spending the rest of her life hiding is no life at all. At least, if she transformed into a Minbari, she would have a life with Sinclair, and be able to have children.
No doubt, the Minbari would have been rather shocked at the idea of their leader marrying a woman of unknown origin, and of unknown caste. There were probably already some questions as to just who Valen was, and where he had come from.
And remember, both Sinclair and Sakai would still be carrying Human DNA, it's possible that their children might have shown some Human characteristics. Although Minbari are bald, it's interesting to note that some of the male Minbari have beards. Dukhat, the older Draal, Shakiri, all had beards - an oddity in a race that's otherwise hairless. Could this be a result of Human DNA?] An interesting thought.
Sinclair would have seen trouble coming, that he and his family might be the target of prejudice if they stayed, so he and Catherine, and whatever children they had would have gotten the Hell out of there. Time, though, would obscure the issues. In time, the children probably returned to Minbar, and very quietly assimilated into the general population. They married and had children of their own.
Just a guess, of course

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
If she remained in Human form she wouldn't have been able to procreate with Sinclair/Valen. The Human and Minbari reproductive systems are different (as Delenn finds out.) Also cross-species breeding is impossible without serious genetic engineering. (G'Kar offer to Lyta of a "direct mating" is his way of getting her into the sack - his personal perversion being Human females - not a serious attempt to produce a child.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I wasn't sure if Sinclair as Valen and Catherine as a human would be able to procreate I thought maybe because Sinclair is still part human I assume...Just like when Delenn changed to human she was still part Minbari, she had the bone on her head still and could fast longer than a human still but also less then a Minbari(as she was doing when Sheridan was missing at Zah'hadum).

See Valen part human/Minabari and Delenn part human/Minbari and they both had children.

Or did Sinclair maybe change more Minbari when he turned into Valen lose more of his human side, and Delenn kept more of her Minbari side when she changed.

Maybe Valen is like 95% Minbari 5% Human and Delenn is 50% Minbari 50% human.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
JMS has said that Valen's marriage was something of a scandal, but has not elaborated, and he has never specifically identified Sakai as Valen's mate, although the clues seem very clear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hadn't heard anything about a scandal with Valen's marrage(be a fun story but Romantic babylon 5 maybe). I also thought it was mentioned somwhere in either a book or tv about Sakai being Valens mate in the past.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
If Sakai was Valen's wife and the mother of his children, she had to have become Minbari. It is quite possible that no other Minbari ever saw her, since we don't know where and when she was found. Once he located her, Valen could have sent Zathras to her on whichever planet she crashed on with the Chrysalis device and the triluminary. The scandal may simply have been due to Valen's marrying a Minbari with no known family or clan affiliations. Or maybe her independent ways offended the Minbari, who are very conformist.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah a couple possibilities I am still unsure though about if Valen and Catherine Sakai could have had children without changing her...prolly not like you said but never know Vorlons coulda helped them.

Hmmn nah I think she did change Valen would have been scared of changing teh future not meeting a human too soon.

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
Again, I begin to suspect I missed something big somewhere. Not sure if this is spoiler, so I'll:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I think it has already been mentioned when Sheridan was unstuck in time, that he and Delenn have a son. Yet Sheridan never changed to Minbari, did he? So what is it that I'm missing here? Obviously, a lot.</font></td></tr></table>



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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Delenn changed so Sheridan didn't have to....
Remeber her telling Ivanova she was getting these strange cramps? LOL
Her reproductive system changed as well as her appearence so like I said, Sheridan didn't need to.... </font></td></tr></table>



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"Faith Manages"
 
One VERY significant fact for this discussion that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Delenn is a "Child of Valen". In fact, her entire Clan are Children of Valen. Something they are determined to hide. That is how she finally blackmails them into allowing her to marry Sheridan when they try to trap her on Minbar in order to Prevent the marriage. If she reveals her True heritage, the Clan will be embarassed.

The only thing we really Know is that Sinclair/Valen included the line:
"As for me... I've received my Own reward... Because I've Found her. At long last..."
in one of his personal diaries that Delenn found on Babylon 4 when they rediscovered it.
It's a pretty good bet that he WAS referring to Catherine Sakai. And that some hint of this was a Critical piece of information in the letter to himself that prompted him to Become Valen in the first place.

Personally, I see no reason to think Catherine crashed her ship when she went back in time. She was an excellent pilot and, while her ship was damaged, it also had the Vorlon Self Repair capability. She might have needed to locate a handy asteroid belt for raw materials for the self repair systems. And a relatively primitive planet to stock up on oxygen and food.

At whatever point in time she ended up, her best bet would have been to try to locate Kosh. He'd be the only person of that time she could hope to trust.

Of course, she would also have needed to scout around and find out just When she'd ended up.


I'm probably not the only person who has begged for Kathryn Drennan to please tell us the rest of Catherine Sakai's story.
cool.gif




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> It's a pretty good bet that he WAS referring to Catherine Sakai. And that some hint of this was a Critical piece of information in the letter to himself that prompted him to Become Valen in the first place.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beleive Sinclair does find Sakai in the past, since I remember reading that JMS said there was a typo in the last lines of the comic - Sinclair isn't supposed to be addressing Sakai. I read it in B5 mag ages ago, so if someone can back me up please.

Thanks, and regards

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With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse
 
I think that Sinclair as Valen was about 99.9999% Minbari, on the genetic level and Delenn - despite her outward appearance - was maybe 99.999% Human - otherwise she would have been unable to have children with Sheridan. Humans and gorillas differ by only a few percent in DNA, but I doubt you could produce a Human/gorilla hybrid. (Not that you'd want to try.
smile.gif
)

While the Minbari have no head hair, we don't know that they normally have no other hair. (I don't know about you, but I've never seen a Minbari naked.) Facial hair is actually fairly common among male Minbari. In addition to the examples you mention there is the fellow who succeeds to the command of the Trigati and makes the fake attempt on Delenn's life, and at least one other, although the person and the episode we see him in escape me at the moment. Since at least one of these is warrior caste, and intercaste marriages seem to be rare, it is unlikely that all of these individuals are descendants of Valen. Also JMS has explicitly said that Dukhat was not a "Child of Valen." Nor, presumably, were most of the other Gray Council members we've seen, since everyone made such a big deal about the Triluminary glowing when Delenn was inaugurated Satai.

(BTW, it is entirely possible that the only reason that Delenn was able to use the Chrysalis device was because she was a Child of Valen. If the Triluminaries were originally attuned to Sinclair/Valen's DNA, it may be that Human DNA is necessary for the thing to work. Maybe a "pure" Minbari wouldn't be able to use it.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The One Who Was:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Delenn changed so Sheridan didn't have to....
Remeber her telling Ivanova she was getting these strange cramps? LOL
Her reproductive system changed as well as her appearence so like I said, Sheridan didn't need to.... </font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Yes "these odd cramps" was a dead giveaway that her reproductive system had changed. I had forgotten about that! </font></td></tr></table>

crazy.gif


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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> LOL, well it was kind of obvious which kind she meant....
As you should know better than I, the menstrual cycle is crucial for reproduction.... </font></td></tr></table>


crazy.gif


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"Faith Manages"
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Sinclair and Catherine got married in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" against the wishes of practically everybody.

I have the book but will have to spend a lot of time looking through it, so if anyone knows the answer please spare me the trouble.
crazy.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Sinclair and Catherine got married in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" against the wishes of practically everybody.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're wrong.
smile.gif


They had planned to get married, which nobody else seemed to be thrilled about, but I don't remember any major protests. Ulkesh, if I'm not mistaken, objected to having Catherine around at all on the grounds that she was a distraction for Sinclair, and there may have been some grumbling when she first moved in with Sinclair and later entered Ranger training. But it was not made that big a deal of.

Their first plan was to return to B5 (since Garibaldi and Ivanova were supposed to be Best Man and Maid of Honor), but Ranger business made that impossible. Then they were going to get married on Minbar, but the mission on which Catherine was lost intervened. So the wedding never took place.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Thanks, Joe. I knew I could count on you.
smile.gif


However I do believe they shared quarters (and a bed) so maybe that's where I got the notion.
wink.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Since at least one of these is warrior caste, and intercaste marriages seem to be rare, it is unlikely that all of these individuals are descendants of Valen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all rare. Such marriages are mentioned several times. In the first season episode when Delenn does her little Body Snatching routine, she has an argument with Neroon over Whose caste takes precedence, Mother or Father. Like everything else, they have a "ritual" for it.

Caste is determined by the Vocation a person is best suited for. Clan is the family unit. For instance Lennier's clan is known to include both Warrior & Religious caste members. Impossible unless marriages between castes are part of everyday life.

We've seen how Conformist Minbari are. They just Don't break out of the accepted mold.




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:


The only thing we really Know is that Sinclair/Valen included the line:
"As for me... I've received my Own reward... Because I've Found her. At long last..."
in one of his personal diaries that Delenn found on Babylon 4 when they rediscovered it.
It's a pretty good bet that he WAS referring to Catherine Sakai. And that some hint of this was a Critical piece of information in the letter to himself that prompted him to Become Valen in the first place.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah I forgot about this..

At long last he found her hmmnn
I guess this means that Sinclair must have spent allot of time as Velen before he found Sakai.

So either Sakai arrived before Sinclair in the past and she was alone or without Sinclair for years or she arrived after Valen got back ..

I wanna know how they found each other in the past..


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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
Yeah, I'd like to know how Sinclair and Catherine Sakai found each other again. And what her reaction would have been when she discovered that her fiance was now a Minbari!
I don't think that the relatives that Lennier lost onThe Black Star were necessarily Warrior Caste. The war against the Humans was a Holy War, a Jihad. InAtonement one of the Gray Council members, Morann [I think] tells Delenn that,
"We are a world gone mad." This was a war that involved all three castes. Branmer, a priest of the Religous Caste became a general, and you can bet your boots that other members of the Religous caste [and not just those that had a Warrior parent] became involved. And the Worker caste probably also became 'warriors for the working day', and were probably used as infantry or foot-soldiers. Considering how organised and efficient the Minbari are, the war against Earth was probably one, huge united effort, far surpassing the war-efforts of the Second World War. Every level of society would have been heavily involved - there would have been practically no dissenting voices.
[Although Lennon, the then Anla'shok Na] opposed the war, and there is a suggestion that Delenn's father was against it].
Admittidly, it's possible that Lennier did have relatives that were Warrior Caste. some of his clan might have married 'out', or had Minbari of the Warrior Caste marry in.

PS The Minbari who commanded the Trigati and bust into Delenn's quarters was called Kalain.

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After reading To Dream in The City of Sorrows I would really love to read the Sinclair/Valen/Sakai relationship.
smile.gif


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"So where does the power come from to see the race to its end? It comes from within."
 
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