The date of "The Gathering"

The date of \"The Gathering\"

The precise date in 2257 when The Gathering takes place has been a point of debate for years. Different sources give different dates, and the internal evidence is ambiguous. (And JMS, who is often imprecise about these things, has never given a definitive answer that I can find.)

The question has a bearing on how long Delenn, Sinclair and Garibaldi have known each other and various other story points. (More than one "anniversary" for B5 is given, for instance, with references to its "going on-line", being completed, and starting to function as intended - which presumably dates from Kosh's arrival to complete the B5 council.)

While digging around The Lurker's Guide looking for something else entirely, I ran across the unfilmed " alternate opening " that JMS wrote as an option in case he didn't like the way Londo's narration worked out. It takes the form of a series of outer space shots with the voice of an ISN news anchor reading various stories that help set the stage. One of them mentions that it has been a year since B5 first opened, and that the station is celebrating with the arrival of the final ambassador. Another mentions a new astronomical object named in honor of John F. Kennedy, mentions his role in the early U.S. space program, and notes that the 340th anniversary of his birth falls "this week."

JFK was born on May 29th. Presumably this means that The Gathering takes place in late May or early June 2257, and that the station started operations about a year earlier.

Discuss. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Joe

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

I have just checked my copy of The Shadow Within and the front page has the date November, 2256. When the story begins, Anna Sheridan is in her lab studying the strange artifact which starts the ball rolling before the Icarus takes off to find Z'ha'dum.

About half way through the book there is a second date, January, 2257 which is just after the probe has been sent from the Icarus to explore the planet which had been located and it has not returned.

In the meantime Sheridan has been sent off to break in the crew of the Agamemnon and to prevent the destruction of Babylon 5.

I do believe that all of the action contained in this book could take place in the interval before May 2257

Since this book is considered canon and was okayed by JMS. I would think the dates are correct.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

From watching some of the Season 1 DVDs I was trying to piece that together as well.

Some parts made it seem like The Gathering took place a few weeks before "Midnight on the Firing Line." Just with the comments about Doctor Kyle and Lyta being quickly transferred off the station after their contact with the Vorlon. Franklin comments about passing the doctor at the transfer point on Io. So to me, that lead me to believe that The Gathering took place in late 2257. However everything from other episodes, including how long Sinclair, Garibaldi, and Delenn have known each other, lead me to believe that it is closer to the June time frame described above. Maybe they just waited a while before transferring the doctor and Lyta off the station, although 6 months would seem odd.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

I got to thinking about the same thing with Dr. Kyle. I think it's just one of those things that there's not really a 'correct' answer to. Then again there were a lot of changes from The Gathering to the start of season one and it was probably just overlooked.

Maybe it was just a 'shortened' year for some unknown reason. They probably just left a few months out. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Well, Dr. Kyle was transferred back to Earth to be Santiago's advisor on alien medical issues. This is essentially similar to the position with the Alliance that Delenn offers Stephen, and the same job that Stephen ultimately takes on Earth. In making her offer Delenn takes into account the fact that Stephen is going to want to be "in the field" at least part of the time, that he would never be satisified chained to a desk back on Earth. I can only assume that he'd feel the same way about when he takes over from Kyle on Earth - which suggests that the job Kyle was doing included some field work, and therefore some interstellar travel.

Nothing Stephen says in "Midnight" indicates that Kyle was on his way to Earth from B5, much less that he was en route to take up his new duties. It is just as plausible that Kyle was outbound from Earth to a Human colony or alien planet, on his way back from same, or even returning from a visit to B5 subsequent to his original transfer, as part of his new duties. Stephen's line serves to remind viewers of Dr. Kyle, and acknowledge his departure (important for the original series viewers, many of whom had seen the pilot once, a year before, and would be wondering about the changes.)

So there is no necessary contradiction here. Kyle could have been at the transfer point for any number of reasons when he ran into Franklin.

Regards,

Joe

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

The B5 Magazine "Official Chronology" gives the dates for The Gathering as from Sunday 3rd January to Friday 8th January 2257. Briefly, the dates given are:

3 January - Varner arrives, G'Kar checks Lyta's genetic records
4 January - Minbari assassin boards B5 using breaching pod, Varner killed, Delenn asks to meet Sinclair in Zen Garden and Garibaldi checks up on Londo in the casino. Attempt on Kosh
5 January - Dr.Kyle discovers Kosh poisoned, Lyta scans Kosh
6 January - Kyle stabilises Kosh, assassin meets with G'Kar then heads for Medlab to finish the job. Sinclair and Garibaldi pursue. Assassin killed
8 January - Reception for Kosh

Apparently these dates are derived from dates given in 'Divided Loyalties'

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Stephen's line serves to remind viewers of Dr. Kyle, and acknowledge his departure (important for the original series viewers, many of whom had seen the pilot once, a year before, and would be wondering about the changes.)

Click to expand...

I kind of gathered that but one thing I've always wondered is why they never once mention Takashima after The Gathering. Wouldn't those same viewers want to know what had become of her? I know I did the first time I saw it. As you pointed out, they mentioned what had become of Kyle and subsequently what became of Lyta as well, but no mention whatsoever of Laurel's disappearance.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

I kind of gathered that but one thing I've always wondered is why they never once mention Takashima after The Gathering.

Click to expand...

Well, as JMS said in reference to "SiL", you can't have the characters stop to do a roll-call of names just because fans want to hear them. It makes sense that Franklin would mention Kyle, because both he and Sinclair know him, and Franklin has just arrived as his replacement. Ivanova, on the other hand, probably didn't know Takishima, so Garibaldi merely says, "That's right, you're new here" - a way of dealing with the issue without mentioning the name. Also the major Takishima threads (and some personality traits) had been divvied up among other characters, so there was less reason to remind viewers of her. Talia was taking over the Lyta thread virtually unchanged, but coming at it from a different direction. Lyta and Kyle were the only ones to have actually seen a Vorlon, so there was a reason to incorporate their abrupt transfer into the plot. Takishima's departure may have been more recent (since Ivanova has only just come aboard and is still learning the station routines) and therefore unrelated to the events of The Gathering.

Finally I have a feeling that JMS always hoped to bring Pat Tallman back as Lyta, at least for a guest appearance, so keeping her a living presence probably made sense. With Tamlyn Tomita's film career seeming to take off he was less sure of getting her back again, so her character could be dropped quietly out of the show. (It was his certainty that he'd be unable to hold on to her because of her film work that led JMS to originally write Tomita's character as the one with the artificial personality - because he planned to use that as a way of getting rid of her when the time inevitably came. Ivanova would have been introduced in S1 in the "Corwin" slot, and been promoted to exec after Takishima left.)

Regards,

Joe

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Does anyone but me think it is amazing that here we are discussing the finer points of a tv pilot that first saw the light of day more than 10 years ago. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
It makes you realize once again what a wonderful universe JMS created and how lucky we are to have seen it all.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
<font color="orange">Nothing Stephen says in "Midnight" indicates that Kyle was on his way to Earth from B5, much less that he was en route to take up his new duties. It is just as plausible that Kyle was outbound from Earth to a Human colony or alien planet, on his way back from same, or even returning from a visit to B5 subsequent to his original transfer, as part of his new duties. Stephen's line serves to remind viewers of Dr. Kyle, and acknowledge his departure (important for the original series viewers, many of whom had seen the pilot once, a year before, and would be wondering about the changes.)</font color>

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I can agree with this.

I did make one mistake, it was in Soul Hunter that Franklin first arrives. Franklin did say something about passing Dr Kyle. The reason that DOES make me think that Kyle was departing at that time, is that if Franklin was just arriving, and Kyle was assigned elsewhere 6 months ago, would B5 go without a head of medlab for 6 months? I would think that position would be replaced instantly. Logically to me, Doctor Kyle would be pulled to Earth, and they would QUICKLY send a replacement (Franklin). Compare this to Sinclar/Sheridan. Sinclair was sent off station, a few days later his replacement arrives. That is how I would expect the transition to happen.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

B5 could go with an interim head doctor - don't forget, they have a full medical staff, and later in the storyline B5 goes without Franklin while he's on walkabout hitting on talentless singers! I'm sure Dr. Kyle had a second in command similar in competence to Dr. Hobbes (or perhaps, had Dr. Hobbes herself).

I kind of gathered that but one thing I've always wondered is why they never once mention Takashima after The Gathering.

Click to expand...

Although they don't mention Takashima for many of the reasons Joe has given, her influence is shown a few times. The one that comes to mind is Ivanova finding the coffee plants growing in hydroponics that Takashima left behind, and continuing to grow them to make her own coffee. This is important because it goes to show both characters willingness to bend or break the rules when necessary... and leads to some good Corwin/Marcus/Ivanova humor!
-Tim

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Not only did they not mention Takashima after the Gathering, but they had Ivanova assume one of her little "side hobbies"! Garibaldi was telling Ivanova that his team discovered something "home grown" in the hydroponics section and that it would probably have to be confiscated, in order to blackmail her into going and doing something that he didnt want to do. That seemed like a direct reference to Takashima's coffee plant in the hydroponics section. Funny that the replacement character had the exact same thing going on. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

ya never know, Takashima could've left a little note for her.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Consider this: Franklin is offered the job on Earth during Season 5, but he doesn't leave for quite some time -- months, at the shortest. Kyle may very well have done exactly the same thing.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

Is it not likely that Clarke, especially under Shadow influence would want the only humans to have accurate information on the vorlons within Earthgov, close to what would later become his base of power. The Shadows could have used Kyle's knowledge to blow the Vorlons cover.

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

While digging around The Lurker's Guide looking for something else entirely, I ran across the unfilmed " alternate opening " that JMS wrote as an option in case he didn't like the way Londo's narration worked out.

Click to expand...

The alternate opening was used in A Call To Arms.

Regards,
Marko Marin

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

The alternate in ATCA? Are you sure about that?

Ivanova would have been introduced in S1 in the "Corwin" slot, and been promoted to exec after Takishima left.)

Click to expand...

How do you konw Ivanova (or at least Claudia...) would have even existed if Takashima stayed?

Thank god we got ivanova /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Consider this: Franklin is offered the job on Earth during Season 5, but he doesn't leave for quite some time -- months, at the shortest. Kyle may very well have done exactly the same thing.

Click to expand...

Thats because Dr. Kyle was still working at the xenobiological lab...Franklin was going to take over Kyle's job. Right?

TJ

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

ACtA used a similar voice over ISN intro, but it was very brief and in tone and content not at all like the TG alternate opening.

How do you konw Ivanova (or at least Claudia...) would have even existed if Takashima stayed?

Click to expand...

Because JMS said so. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif He knew when they shot the pilot that Tamlyn Tomita was probably not going to be available for the show long-term, because her movie career seemed to be getting ready to take off. (I think she had just done Karate Kid II and was doing another film after TG) That's why he gave Takishima the Artificial Personality, as a good way to write her out when the time came. Her aide and eventual replacement (whom JMS has described as "a rather dour Russian woman") would have been introduced in S1. I can dig around and find the original post, if you'd like, but I'm pretty sure what I've indicated here is almost word-for-word.

Thats because Dr. Kyle was still working at the xenobiological lab...

Click to expand...

True, but there's still no reason that B5 could not have operated without a cheif of medicine for five or six months. That would have been a tricky position to fill - the person would have to be an EarthForce medical officer, experienced in treating aliens and willing to live way the hell out on Babylon 5 for several years in all likelihood. Like the station commander's job, in some way it would be a plum assignment, in others a disaster waiting to happen if things went badly with the Babylon Project and the station. A potential career-ender. I'll bet they spent some time looking for just the right person after the president unexpectedly recalled Kyle to Earth. In the meantime whoever was Kyle's number two would have run the facility.

Regards,

Joe

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

ACtA used a similar voice over ISN intro, but it was very brief and in tone and content not at all like the TG alternate opening.

Click to expand...

I agree, but the basics are there. I think it would've been much cooler intro for the pilot, but as I haven't seen it yet, I can't say if Londo's narration works for me or not. I should by the dvd soon I suppose...

Regards,
Marko Marin

Re: The date of \"The Gathering\"

The alternate opening was used in A Call To Arms.

Click to expand...

I noticed that too. It's very similar. I think JMS felt he could use the ISN opening after all when he started Crusade.