Valen in Stasis? (spoilers)

[Jendia]

So, I mentioned this on my "Confessions and Lamentations" reply. We were discussing Delenn having a vision of Valen.
Some folks have theorized that he could have been there via more instances of time travel.
Has anyone else thought of this?
And could the Vorlons have kept Valen in stasis, since his body was never found?
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've been away awhile and I'd love to hear your feedback!

Jendia

 

[vacantlook]

I haven't read any of the novels yet, so I don't know if there is any hints of Valen's fate in any of them. But I do think that it isn't unreasonable for Valen to have taken another time trip. The Vorlons keeping him in stasis is also reasonable, but I think the time trip might be more continuitous. While Valen worked with the Vorlons, I just don't get the feeling that he was as close to the Vorlons as say Sheridan was. Now, maybe there was a greater Vorlon connection established in a novel, then maybe them keeping him in stasis would seem more continuitous than it does to me now.

 

[Jendia]

Well, in the book, To Dream in the City of Sorrows, we get a hint that Valen is closer to Kosh than Ulkesh; however, I never sensed the same closeness that Sheridan had, either.
But there is more than enough evidence in the book that he DID get along with Kosh, and so maybe that sort of thing could have been brought about. Maybe even for the purpose of "planting seeds," such as Delenn's vision, to ensure the "prophecy" came true.

Jendia

 

[Nancy]

Do you really think that Sinclair/Valen would remain in statis or time travel so he could appear to Delenn in an emptly temple when she was a child? Its an insignificant event. Maybe it strengthened Delenn's belief in the prophecy of Valen, but I don't think it merited Valen time travelling or staying in statis to come and see her.

 

[vacantlook]

Its an insignificant event. Maybe it strengthened Delenn's belief in the prophecy of Valen, but I don't think it merited Valen time travelling or staying in statis to come and see her.

It was significant for Delenn, apparently. And why wouldn't Sinclair do it? Delenn was one of his closest friends. I'd make such a journey to see one of the people that meant the most to me.

 

[Jendia]

Basically, I mentioned his going into a state of "suspended animation" as a sort of resolution to the paradox for the body that was never found.
Of course, I'd love to hear other people's theories on resolving the paradox.
It's loads of fun to come up with different stories.
I think it would be great if JMS followed up with canon stories about Valen's future/past, to explain some of what happens during his time on Minbar (or wherever else he went).

 

[Nancy]

I'd make such a journey to see one of the people that meant the most to me.

So he decided to go see her as a child, before she even knew that Valen was Sinclair, who was future friend of hers? I imagine that time travel would be a very serious and dangerous thing in the b5 universe. Therefore, I don't think Valen would make this difficult journey just to see Delenn as a child, when she didn't even know he was also Sinclair, a man she hadn't even met yet. And for the staying in statis thing, if this truly happened, where would he go afterwards? He would be useless at this point. He could even endanger the time-line (to use a ST saying ). In addition, Sinclair has Valen's soul. If Valen goes around time travelling to after Sinclair is born or if Valen stays in statis, therefore not dying, Sinclair can't have Valen's soul. Valen needs to die before Sinclair is born in order for Sinclair to have Valen's soul. Like I said before, Sinclair/Valen have a never-ending circular fate. His life would always go from Sinclair to Valen, and back again with the transfer of Valen's soul (after his death) to Sinclair.

 

[raisincajuns]

Technically since Sinclair became Valen --- Valen had Sinclair's soul not the other way around!!

 

[Jendia]

I would imagine Delenn as being quite a bit older than the B5-time period Sinclair, so that is still a possibility.
Aren't the Minbari significantly longer lived than humans?
So if Delenn was a little girl, and Minbari are longer lived, Sinclair might not even have been born at that time anyway, when she saw the vision.
Just a thought.
And an assumption is made that Valen dies to be reincarnated as Sinclair, if I'm reading your post correctly. Perhaps he never died and was never truly born. Just a constant "Valen without end." Any amount of Vorlon tweaking could have aided that, in order to prevent their arch-enemies from gaining any ground. Considering all the bizarre manipulations the Vorlons pulled over millenia (especially with telepaths), it's plausible from that angle.
Well, it's either straight up reincarnation or some other mechanism that JMS's brilliant mind could come up with.
Paradoxes are always brain teasers!

 

[raisincajuns]

The assumption that Valen dies to become Sinclair is not possible. Sinclair became Valen not vice versa -- Valen does not have to die for Sinclair to become reborn all Valen has to do is bear children for Delenn to be born -- Sinclair's parentage was human -- he was transformed into Valen -- thus Valen actually has Sinclair's soul and Delenn being a child of Valen's has a part of Sinclair's soul what happened to Valen after Sinclair was transformed becomes moot because it will not effect Sinclair -- it would only effect Delenn if Valen did not procreate.

 

[Jendia]

That's pretty much what I assumed too. I didn't see a reason for Valen to die and be reincarnated.
But then, I would like it if we knew what happened to Valen.
Also...did he marry Sakai in the past? I think I recall reading that he did find her after he (being Siclair at the time) lost her through the time rift while they and Marcus were taking care of that mess in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows."
Just curious about your take on that also.

 

[raisincajuns]

Well I haven't read the books but that is what I hope!! Although, I am thinking that it didn't happen like that! I just need to get the books!! I have gotten the technomage trilogy but haven't been able to afford any other books recently

 

[Jendia]

Oh, do get the books!
These are "canon":
To Dream in the City of Sorrows
The Shadow Within (good to read before the Technomage books, or after, your choice)
Also, the Centauri Prime trilogy is also good, and the Psi Corps trilogy is entertaining.
But the first book I mentioned, you must read that. It's a good read on its own.
Cheers,
Jendia

 

[is/alliance]

To Dream In The City Of Sorrows ties up some loose ends.A realy good read.The trilogy books are very well done,a must for B5 fans!!Colin.<*>.

 

[Nancy]

I don't think that its Sinclair's soul that goes into Valen makes a difference. Valen stills has to die in order for Sinclair to be born with his soul. If Valen is still alive when Sinclair is born, how can Sinclair be born with the same soul? You can't have 2 identical souls running around at the same time.

All this discusstion on souls and time travel is giving me a headache...

 

[vacantlook]

I'd say that if the three Triluminaries can exist simultaneously in two different locations, then it would be just as logical for one soul to exist simultaneously in two different locations.

 

[Nancy]

What? the triluminaries existed simultaneously in 2 locations? Explain this to me please.

 

[raisincajuns]

Okay I will try to explain this again -- Sinclair did not have Valen's soul -- Valen had Sinclair's soul!! Sinclair was transformed into Valen (which means Valen was not born in the usual sense of the word). Sinclair always had his own soul it had nothing at all to do with Valen because he became Valen. You are focusing on the fact that Valen was supposed to have existed before Sinclair but you forget that Sinclair became Valen and was transported back in time. It does not matter if Valen died or not because his soul originated with Sinclair in the future. The only thing that mattered with Valen was that he reproduce so that Delenn could be born. Valen has nothing to do with Sinclair as HE is Sinclair.

 

[vacantlook]

What? the triluminaries existed simultaneously in 2 locations? Explain this to me please.

I actually have explained it in another thread on this board, but since you asked politely, I'll explain here too.

Zathras brought the three triluminaries and the Crysalis device with him to the White Star prior to the gang going through the temporal rift in "War Without End Part One." Zathras and Sinclair took those three back with them in time and gave them to the Minbari. The Minbari kept all three triluminaries from then on. This enabled the Minbari to possess all three triluminaries at the same time that Zathras had them on Epsilon 3.

 

[Nancy]

Where did Zathras (or should I say Epsilon 3) get the 3 triluminaries and the Chrisalis? Did Epsilon 3 make them or did it come from the Vorlons? The Minbari obviously didn't give Zathras their triluminaries since their holy to them.

RC, I know that Valen has Sinclair's soul, but it still doesn't explain how the same soul (or the triluminaries for that matter) can exist twice at the same time. Although, I still believe Valen eventually died. I don't see the point of him staying alive until Sinclair and Delenn's time.

I think I should quit with my dignity still largely intact and tell myself this is one of those unsolved mysteries.