Hooked up a new HDTV...

[Sindatur]

And it's a little blurry, similar to what happens when you record onto a DVD at too compressed a rate? (IE: 6 hour recorded VHS to a 6 HR DVD recording format) Is this because my Cable box isn't HD, and also my VCR/DVD Dubber isn't HD? Some channels and DVDs are worse than others? Signal goes from Cable to Cable Box, to VCR, to TV (also running it through a converter in between the VCR and TV, since I used to have a TV without all the extra connections, it just had the cable connection)

Also, what's the difference between the 16:9 picture mode and Widescreen picture mode?

Revising description of issue to "Ghost images"

 

[hypatia]

Do you do any gaming? Could there be a problem with the system dealing with different frame rates?

I have no idea what your problem is, but I have heard of something like what you're talking about with older HDTV's.

And according to Wikipedia:

Letterboxing is the practice of transferring film shot in a widescreen aspect ratio to standard-width video formats while preserving the film's original aspect ratio. The resulting videographic image has mattes (black bars) above and below it; these mattes are part of the image (i.e., of each frame of the video signal). LTBX is the identifying abbreviation for films and images so formatted. The term refers to the shape of a letter box, a slot in a wall or door through which mail is delivered, being rectangular and wider than it is high.

Letterboxing is used as an alternative to a full-screen, pan-and-scan transfer of a widescreen film image to videotape or videodisc. In pan-and-scan transfers, the original image is cropped to the narrower aspect ratio of the destination format, usually the 1.33:1 (4:3) ratio of the standard television screen, whereas letterboxing preserves the film's original image composition as seen in the cinema. Letterboxing was developed for use in 4:3 television displays before widescreen television screens were available, but it is also necessary to represent on a 16:9 widescreen display the unaltered original composition of a film with a wider aspect ratio, such as Panavision's 2.35:1 ratio.

Letterbox mattes are usually symmetrical (both the top and bottom mattes are roughly similar in size), but in some instances the picture can be elevated so the bottom matte is much larger, usually for the purpose of placing 'hard' subtitles within the matte to avoid overlapping of the image. This was often done for letterbox widescreen anime on VHS, though the practice of 'hiding' subtitles within the lower matte also is done with symmetrical mattes, albeit with less space available. The placing of 'soft' subtitles within the picture or matte varies according to the DVD player being used[1], though it appears to be dependent on the movie for Blu-Ray disc[2].

An alternative to letterboxing is anamorphic widescreen presentation, which squeezes the picture horizontally to fit into a narrower aspect ratio. The player or receiver must correct this distortion by either stretching the image back to its original relative width, for display on widescreen televisions, or letterboxing it (during playback) for display on 4:3 video screens. This image transformation generally requires digital signal processing, so letterboxing was the only way in which films were presented in widescreen on home video prior to the DVD format (with a few exceptions outside the mass market, such as Squeeze LD). Anamorphic widescreen video recordings are sometimes called "anamorphically enhanced", in comparison to letterboxed versions. To represent a film wider than 16:9 (e.g., a 2.35:1 film) on a 16:9 display with no cropping, both anamorphic and letterbox techniques (or letterboxing alone) are required; using the anamorphic technique, the mattes will be smaller but still necessary.

Academy ratio (1.33:1, or 4:3) film or video is sometimes stretched to fill a widescreen (16:9) television display, resulting in distortion in which actors appear shorter and fatter. This horizontal stretching distortion can be avoided by pillar boxing the image, effected either in the television set or in the video player, e.g. a DVD player. Occasionally, video is shot in a widescreen format and encoded into 4:3 video incorporating letterboxing into the 4:3 image. This effect is common on personal video websites and old documentaries.[citation needed]

If a recording is said to be letterboxed, that implies that the letterboxing was done prior to fixing the recording on the medium. There is a difference between a letterboxed recording (or other source) and a letterboxed picture, as a letterboxed recording will appear letterboxed on every screen – even one that has the same aspect ratio as the source content – while a letterboxed picture may be produced from a non-letterboxed source, in which case it will appear full-screen on a suitably wide display. (The letterboxed source displayed on a wide screen will appear both letterboxed and pillarboxed, so the active picture will occupy a rectangle in the middle of the screen surrounded by mattes on all four sides.) Anamorphic widescreen recordings may be mislabeled as letterboxed, which technically they are not.

The term letterbox is sometimes used to emphasize that a widescreen motion picture or video has not been anamorphically encoded for 16:9 screens, thus not taking full advantage of the resolution provided by DVD, high-definition television (HDTV), or other media. Because the black mattes are part of the picture, they take up space in the signal that could be used for active picture information, forcing the picture to use less vertical space in the signal than if it were anamorphically encoded. This results in less vertical resolution in the letterboxed picture than in either an anamorphic or pan-and-scan version (which have the same vertical resolution). The reduced vertical resolution is the main disadvantage of letterboxing.

I have no idea if that helped, but I found it interesting.

 

[Sindatur]

Thanks Hyp, very interesting indeed, confirms alot of my worldview regarding the subject.

I've noticed the "TV Specific" text and background, such as "TV Menu" don't appear to be affected, so, yea, I think it's because the signal is going through inferior tech (IE: Cable Box and VCR/DVD-R not HD compatible) on it's way to the TV.

This why I was so interested in your opinion on the display quality of my home recorded DVDs on your HDTV system, because I knew the day was coming when I would need to switch to HDTV and it's now come.

Of course I see this with Store Bought DVDs and direct Cable showings too, so, it's not downgraded source material causing the problem all by itself

 

[hypatia]

I do remember you mentioning that. Yea, it's really depressing to watch the black lines on the side of my screen taking up around 1/4 of the damned screen. That's why I did return my t.v. for one with a larger screen. With so much wasted, there wasn't much to do about it.

We do get HBO the main channel in HD now. I watched Avatar on it and wished we had more than four damend HD channels on my cable package.

 

[fisheggs]

:angel::devil: And who "suggested" ( rather vociferiously) that bigger is sometimes better?


http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?p=334009&highlight=hdtv#post334009
I think it was JJ.:angel:




Sindatur, try hooking up "rabbit ear" antennae, scan and see what channels are available. Here in indy I have 7 network hd broadcasts available over the air (OTA) plus several substations ie 8.1, main, 8.2 overall 24 hr weather, and 8.3 current local radar. The local PBS station has 1 main and 2 subchannels as well. I got rid of cable many years ago which has more than paid for my 42" plasma, with digital tuner. My local library provides me with free movies and TV on DVD, just finished Dexter Season 4, and Angel Season 3. Poor Julie Benz.:devil:

It will also tell you if its your display (TV) or your input.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

And it's a little blurry, similar to what happens when you record onto a DVD at too compressed a rate? (IE: 6 hour recorded VHS to a 6 HR DVD recording format) Is this because my Cable box isn't HD, and also my VCR/DVD Dubber isn't HD? Some channels and DVDs are worse than others? Signal goes from Cable to Cable Box, to VCR, to TV (also running it through a converter in between the VCR and TV, since I used to have a TV without all the extra connections, it just had the cable connection)

Also, what's the difference between the 16:9 picture mode and Widescreen picture mode?

Sounds like you hooked up your equipment in just about the worst way possible.

First, if you want true HDTV, you will need to get a HD cable box, or a ATSC (broadcast HD) antenna.

Your HD TV probably has a QAM digital cable tuner in it. Your TV would need a direct cable RF connection to use that to tune whatever HD channels you get in the clear, probably mostly local ones.

Your cable box needs a direct cable RF connection, to tune what it can tune.

Your "VCR/DVD dubber," I guess you mean a VCR/DVD recorder combo, will need its own cable RF connection, to tune what ever is left as analog NTSC on your cable system, probably not much.

This would mean a three way splitter on your cable, right out of the wall.

The best connection from a non-HD cable box is S-Video. That is also the best connection you can send from any cable box, even HD, to a DVD recorder.

The best connection from a HD cable box to your TV is HDMI, or component. Likewise, HDMI, or component from your DVD player to your HDTV is far superior, with your DVD player/recorder set to output progressive scan signals to your 16x9 TV.

Here's what you really should do:

Get a HD cable box. Run HDMI from that to your TV. Run S-Video and R/L audio to your DVD recorder.

Run HDMI, or Component and R/L audio, from your DVD player/recorder to your TV.

If there is enough left in analog on your cable system that you want to record directly from raw cable, to your VCR/DVDR, using its tuner, get a two way cable splitter from your cable company. Install it on the cable where it comes out of the wall. Send it to your cable box, and to your VCR/DVDR. Don't worry about sending it directly to your TV, you won't need it, if you have a HD cable box.

Get what cords you can, free from your cable company. Probably just HDMI to your TV, a splitter, and a couple short pieces of RF (coax) cable to hook up your cable box and VCR/DVDR.

Get the other cables you need, S-Video, audio, HDMI or component, from www.monoprice.com. They are the cheapest. If you do this, and get it together correctly, you will be wowed!

 

[hypatia]

:angel::devil: And who "suggested" ( rather vociferiously) that bigger is sometimes better?

What I don't think you quite understand here is that going HDTV at all turned out to be a highly questionable purchase.

When I went up in advertised screen sice, my television went DOWN in ACTUAL screen size. That's because the vast majority of what I watch isn't on HBO's primary channel, or is an HD DVD. This makes my television waste a lot of horizontal space. I have two 4-inch black stripes that run down the television set. Going HDTV took away so much horizontal space, it made the screen size smaller.

Unless there is something I'm watching on HBO. Once a week, if I'm lucky. I'd go with satellite t.v., but the reception on those can be iffy in the mountains here (too many heavy metals and too close to the border where the USA sets up an electronic interference wall, in hopes of interfering with the cell phone calls of the illegals crossing over).

 

[Jade Jaguar]

What I don't think you quite understand here is that going HDTV at all turned out to be a highly questionable purchase.

When I went up in advertised screen sice, my television went DOWN in ACTUAL screen size. That's because the vast majority of what I watch isn't on HBO's primary channel, or is an HD DVD. This makes my television waste a lot of horizontal space. I have two 4-inch black stripes that run down the television set. Going HDTV took away so much horizontal space, it made the screen size smaller..

Didn't I warn you about that at the time?

This is precisely why, when I bought a HDTV, I made sure that the screen size was as high as my old one. My old SDTV was 46", and my HDTV is 56", which makes them the same height, but the HDTV is wider.

About DVDs, SD DVDs, if they are in a wide screen aspect ratio, like most modern films, and "anamorphic," or "enhanced for wide screen" should fill your screen from side to side. If they aren't doing this, it could be you aren't using the proper connecting cables, which would be HDMI, or component. Or, your DVD player might not have the right settings in the set-up menu. However, 2.35:1 aspect ratio films, commonly called "cinemascope," will leave narrow bars on the top and bottom of the screen.

 

[hypatia]

Yea, I do think you did mention that. :alienblush:
I had no idea how much of a difference it would make.

O.K. I think I know the cord you mean. I thought i did hook it up that way, but perhaps it was just the DVD player. I can change screen size, but good old Turner Classic Movies are either displayed as tiny boxes with black on top/bottom as well as side/side if it was letterbox, or part of the picture is chopped of. By using the right kind of cable, I can change this?

And that's the same kind of connection as is used to connect a computer to the tv?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

There are lots of possible causes of not being able to make the picture fill the screen.

HD channels are digital, and in 720p, or 1080i.. Most TVs cannot zoom when receiving a digital signal. Most cable boxes give the option (usually in a service menu) of outputting SD 480i channels as 480i, or 480p, over the HDMI, or component, outputs. Most TVs will let you zoom on a 480i signal, but not a 480p. Many TVs won't let you zoom anything coming in on HDMI, but some will, more likely if it is a 480i signal. But, lots of TVs won't even accept a 480i signal over HDMI.

HDMI is a bit similar, electronically, to the cable you would use to connect a computer to the TV, but physically, it is way smaller, and doesn't have the screw attachments.You should definitely use HDMI from your DVD player, otherwise, you won't get the benefits of upscaling by your DVD player.

But, for the HD cable box, I prefer component cables. These are three wires, red, blue, and green, that carry the picture only. Two audio wires are used for the right and left channels. I set the cable box to output the SD channels at 480i. That way, I can zoom them to fill the screen with a letterboxed picture.

Different manufacturers give them different names, but here are the common picture size settings:

For digital 480p, HD 1080i and 720p -
4x3 (for pictures in the old SD TV aspect ratio)
Wide (for widescreen pictures)
Computer

For SD 480i -
4x3
Wide
Zoom (makes a 16x9 letterboxed film fill the screen, leaves a thin top and bottom bar with 2.35:1 films)

Once in a while, a HD channel will show a 4x3 letterboxed image, and few, if any, TVs will offer a setting to make the image fill the screen. TCMHD has done this a few times. IFCHD does it much of the time.

What you really need is an A/V buff (or professional) to look over your connections and settings, to make sure things are as they should be. If I lived a whole lot closer, I'd be happy to help, but AZ is a long way from MI. Have any knowledgeable friends there?

 

[hypatia]

It was a "knowledgeable friend" who set me up. But I can talk directly to the cable company, and they are very helpful over there. And I live around the corner from them. That's a smidge closer than you are, I'll venture to guess. I'm afraid it won't help. I dont' have HD cable channels, I think that's the problem. Unless it's on that first HBO channel, my cable company doesn't send the signal out as an HD signal. Is there really a way to force the issue?

And I think it's the 4:3 that is driving me so nuts with the tiny little letterbox in the middle of a screen with thick black borders. I will say that I can see those only because I went for a larger screen size, and the size may seem odd at first, but it's watchable.

I just wonder if I could get TCMHD through satellite where I live sometimes. And just keep the cable for the internet.

And yes, the multiple cables red, yellow and something else (green?) are how they hook up to my t.v.

 

[fisheggs]

:angel::devil: And if you had a smaller screen, the picture would be bigger?:devil::angel:



Seriously, you should be getting better results. Check your settings on all your components; some may be "fighting " each other. With *most* dvd's you will get bars over and under, or on the side: one or the other, not both. Newer DVD's are all animorphic: they will fill your entire screen. Older vids, especially TV shows are in 4/3 ratio: thats what they were broadcast in. Now, I don't have cable:bolian: For good reason.


Hype, reread the last link:devil: and reread the whole page. (it's short) Have you tried to use your TV as a monitor? It may not be to late to take a tax break.:devil:





And Sindatur. Hows it going?

 

[Sindatur]

:angel::devil: And if you had a smaller screen, the picture would be bigger?:devil::angel:



Seriously, you should be getting better results. Check your settings on all your components; some may be "fighting " each other. With *most* dvd's you will get bars over and under, or on the side: one or the other, not both. Newer DVD's are all animorphic: they will fill your entire screen. Older vids, especially TV shows are in 4/3 ratio: thats what they were broadcast in. Now, I don't have cable:bolian: For good reason.


Hype, reread the last link:devil: and reread the whole page. (it's short) Have you tried to use your TV as a monitor? It may not be to late to take a tax break.:devil:





And Sindatur. Hows it going?

Haven't had a chance to do anything, will see this weekend.

Mine's a 32", and the only place I have side bars is "Normal" setting, which is 4/3. All the other setting are full screen across, and sometimes bars across the top and bottom for widescreen. First step is probably calling to check out getting an HD Cable Box from Cable Company (Don't know if there's a bigger charge even)

 

[hypatia]

I can expand the picture, but for one thing it really does chop part of the picture off. And yes, I was surprised that the TCM letterboxed movies were often far smaller than they used to be.

All I was getting at, JJ, is that it's only this problem that made me choose a larger screen size. If I could have had a bit bigger than it was before, I'd have been content with everything about that t.v. (except the view angle).

If I do fix the problem, I'll have abnormally large pictures for my rapidly increasing poor eyesight, though. That's another thing I hadn't realized would worse as quickly as it has.

 

[Kraig]

It was a "knowledgeable friend" who set me up. But I can talk directly to the cable company, and they are very helpful over there. And I live around the corner from them. That's a smidge closer than you are, I'll venture to guess. I'm afraid it won't help. I dont' have HD cable channels, I think that's the problem. Unless it's on that first HBO channel, my cable company doesn't send the signal out as an HD signal. Is there really a way to force the issue?

And I think it's the 4:3 that is driving me so nuts with the tiny little letterbox in the middle of a screen with thick black borders. I will say that I can see those only because I went for a larger screen size, and the size may seem odd at first, but it's watchable.

I just wonder if I could get TCMHD through satellite where I live sometimes. And just keep the cable for the internet.

And yes, the multiple cables red, yellow and something else (green?) are how they hook up to my t.v.

If any part of your house has a clear view of the southern sky about 45 degrees above the horizon you can get Turner Classic Movies HD all the time, on Dish network. You will also get your Tucson local channels for ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox in HD, and about 100 plus HD channels depending on what channel packages you want.

 

[hypatia]

Thanks for all of the info. And thanks Kraig, that name rings a bell. Dish Network has been sending me a lot of junk mail lately. I have just heard satellite is a lot less reliable than cable. But that may just be our location.

I wish I had the time to mess with such things, but it shall wait for three more weeks if it's waited this long.

It is always so informative posting tech questions here.

 

[Kraig]

Thanks for all of the info. And thanks Kraig, that name rings a bell. Dish Network has been sending me a lot of junk mail lately. I have just heard satellite is a lot less reliable than cable. But that may just be our location.

I wish I had the time to mess with such things, but it shall wait for three more weeks if it's waited this long.

It is always so informative posting tech questions here.

I have found the opposite to be true.

The satellite is in geostationary orbit. As long as you have a clear view in the direction of the satellite, the picture quality will be excellent. It would take a major thunderstorm to take out your satellite signal, the kind of storm where you would probably loose electrical power first.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Hypatia, the weather where you are is usually pretty good, so reliability problems with satellite should be minimal. It might be a good alternative.

If you have red, blue, and green wires for picture, and red and white wires for audio, going from your cable box to your TV, you should have HD. If you have a yellow picture wire, and a red and white, (or sometimes red and blue) audio wires, then you do have SD, not HD. I'm surprised if your cable company doesn't offer HD. But, you would need an HD cable box, and would pay more for it, to get HD.

Your set should have a 'zoom' setting designed to make a letterboxed 4x3 picture fill the screen, without cropping anything, unless your set has a lot of "overscan," which means that it normally crops some, or all, of the edges. Most TVs have 2% - 5% overscan, unless you pay to have them adjusted.

 

[hypatia]

Hypatia, the weather where you are is usually pretty good, so reliability problems with satellite should be minimal. It might be a good alternative.

A friend of mine cannot get satellite at all because he's just outside of the satellite's line-of-sight, or however it's called. We live surrounded by mountains on all sides, of various heights. But I'll venture a guess that some company's signal reaches my neighborhood. Either that, or there is some other signal those dishes receive.

I am trying to remember what I've heard, exactly. It may have been outages. If that's the case, it would have to be pretty frequent, since I seem to lose cable and/or internet on a fairly regular basis. Just not usually for very long. Maybe a few seconds, maybe half a day or so.
I'll start asking around again, and see what people tend to prefer these days.

If you have red, blue, and green wires for picture, and red and white wires for audio, going from your cable box to your TV, you should have HD. If you have a yellow picture wire, and a red and white, (or sometimes red and blue) audio wires, then you do have SD, not HD. I'm surprised if your cable company doesn't offer HD.

JJ, you're fantastic! I will have to have a friend help me pull the entertainment center out a bit so I can see in the daytime which colors for certain, but one hookup (DVD player to t.v.) is a setup that I'd forgotten had been put up for a quick fix, so I could see the news or something. That hookup was never corrected, since I didn't know how and then rapidly forgot all about it.

Of course, that's what I need to look into. I have one set of cables with the yellow and another without, it looks like.

THANKS!

Maybe I can get it fixed for the holidays.

But, you would need an HD cable box, and would pay more for it, to get HD.

I do have the HD cable box. They were ready for a big changeover when things started getting a bit shaky in the economy. They are moving forward, just slowly. But they've been planning the switch, so they've been talking to people about which kind of box they should get. I was getting HBO at the time, and I do get the one channel in HD, I'm pretty sure it's HD. [/quote]
[/quote]

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Okay, since you have a HD cable box, you should run either HDMI, which has both sound and picture, or the three wire component picture, and two wire audio, from your cable box to your TV. That will improve your picture quite a bit. Your cable company should provide either type of cable. I prefer the component. That is because you can't zoom a digital HDMI signal picture on most TVs. If you are watching a wide screen movie on a SD channel, you will need to zoom to make it fill the screen. Even with the component connection, you may have to set an option in the service menu of your cable box, to let you zoom. The setting you may need is to select that SD signals be output in their native 480i, and not stepped up to 480p.

You should have a HDMI cable from your DVD player to your TV. Here is a picture of one. They are about as small as your single cables. Most don't have the fancy stuff on the plastic part of the plug, they're just plain black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MyCable.jpg