Dissension within Babyon 5.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I was thinking about how JMS worked in stories that involved competition, dislike, and all-out civil warfare among many of the races in Babylon 5.

There was a big division between the Centauri that started between Londo and Refa. The Narns had their disagreements, G'Kar and Counselor Du-Rog. Also the individual who wanted G'Kar to step down. The Humans and the Minbari each endured all-out civil war.

This idea isn't omnipresent in the sci-fi genre. Usually its one race versus another, Us against Them. Very little dissension takes place.

Another interesting point parallel to this one is he introduces betrayal into many relationships. Garibaldi's second in command at the end of S1. Garibaldi himself in S4 to Sheridan. Lennier betraying Sheridan in S5. Talia betraying practically everyone (probably Ivanova the most). Clark betraying Santiago. The list goes on and on. I love the intrigue and depth that coexist with themes like these. It adds realism to a story. Realism that doesn't exist in alot of TV shows.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[A_Ranger]

[Kosh] Yes.... [End Kosh]

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[joev5638]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
I was thinking about how JMS worked in stories that involved competition, dislike, and all-out civil warfare among many of the races in Babylon 5.

There was a big division between the Centauri that started between Londo and Refa. The Narns had their disagreements, G'Kar and Counselor Du-Rog. Also the individual who wanted G'Kar to step down. The Humans and the Minbari each endured all-out civil war.

This idea isn't omnipresent in the sci-fi genre. Usually its one race versus another, Us against Them. Very little dissension takes place.

Another interesting point parallel to this one is he introduces betrayal into many relationships. Garibaldi's second in command at the end of S1. Garibaldi himself in S4 to Sheridan. Lennier betraying Sheridan in S5. Talia betraying practically everyone (probably Ivanova the most). Clark betraying Santiago. The list goes on and on. I love the intrigue and depth that coexist with themes like these. It adds realism to a story. Realism that doesn't exist in alot of TV shows.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dark Archon,

The G'Kar/Du'Rog conflict is covered in more detail in the third book of the Dell series, "Blood Oath." It's one of the better ones. You're welcome to borrow it if you'd like, as well as the ninth book, "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows," which is a MUST-READ!

As for conflict within races, keep in mind that the Centauri upper echelon is continually filled with political intrigue. You see a bit of the same with the Narns in "Blood Oath." But other than the Du'Rog incident, you don't see a lot of conflict within the Narns. If you recall, even the Narn who wanted G'Kar to step down and turn himself over to the Centauri was essentially not doing so willingly, as observed by Londo (something like "He tries to hide it, this one"). The Narn dissention is usually shown as a handful of Narns following a rebellious leader.

Joe

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[GKarsEye]

Ya know, I always regretted that we don't get to see any common Centauri people. I mean, after all, they are the majority. They should different Narns a few times, like those who worked security, but all the Centauri are aristocracy.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Arrghman]

there were some 'normal' centauri... although they didnt do much beside start brawls with the narn when the war started, and there was that guy who planted that bomb in 'the fall of the night'...

although i dont think any of them ever talked

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[Quagmire]

Just wanted to add that although it may be a good read, could not say not having read it, "Blood Oath" is not canon.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
joev5638 said
If you recall, even the Narn who wanted G'Kar to step down and turn himself over to the Centauri was essentially not doing so willingly, as observed by Londo (something like "He tries to hide it, this one").
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got the wrong Narn. Not the one that tried to take his place as the Centauri's representative. The one that wanted him to step down and then G'kar brought him the data crystal with information about the Narns family. I remember G'Kar had to use the help of Garibaldi and the Ranger to accomplish this.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[RW7427]

IMHO, these are some of the things that make B5 so good.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

 

[KoshN]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Ya know, I always regretted that we don't get to see any common Centauri people. I mean, after all, they are the majority. They should different Narns a few times, like those who worked security, but all the Centauri are aristocracy.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there's a little in the Centauri Prime trilogy.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

 

[joev5638]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Just wanted to add that although it may be a good read, could not say not having read it, "Blood Oath" is not canon.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doctor Gonzo,

Though it may not be canon, it is a really good book. The characters are done well, and the only real problem with the book is the appearance and conditions of the Narn homeworld differs from what we see in Season 4. And no, it can't all be explained away by the bombing.

Since I like reading about characters more than worry about details, all of the Dell books EXCEPT for "Clark's Law" are at least decent. "Clark's Law" is an atrocity that even the Shadows couldn't dream up. And, of course, it features the most "out-of-character" actions.

But I can't say enough about "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows," which JMS says (in the foreword) *IS* canon.

Joe


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[joev5638]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
You got the wrong Narn. Not the one that tried to take his place as the Centauri's representative. The one that wanted him to step down and then G'kar brought him the data crystal with information about the Narns family. I remember G'Kar had to use the help of Garibaldi and the Ranger to accomplish this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dark Archon,

Ah. Consider that at that point, G'Kar had no government support, yet asked the other Narns to accept his leadership. The Narn in question simply wanted G'Kar to show him that G'Kar was not without power or influence. It was far from political maneuvering by the Narn in question as an attempt to seek power, as he did not ask for the position himself, but only asked G'Kar to step down in favor of "another" if he didn't have the power/influence necessary to effectively lead the Narn resistance. It was far from rebellion.

Joe


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[Kribu]

I agree with Joe about Blood Oath... a good book, generally well-written (we're not talking high literature here, but it's an entertaining book), and while not canon, the characters are at least 'in character' most of the time. A fun one to read.

As for the original topic - yes, I also think it's great that in the B5 universe, there's dissension and variety even among the non-humans. Heck, even the Vorlons weren't all the same, it was pretty obvious that Kosh and Ulkesh had a different perspective on things!

It would have been terribly boring, not to mention unlikely, if the alien societies had appeared monolithic.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

 

[Loadhan]

Sadly, I did not get into B5 when it first came on the air. I did see a few episodes in Season 3 and started to like it. But what really got me hooked was when I saw the episode - one of the first of Season 3 I caught the whole thing of - "Severed Dreams" where Sheriden and B5 officially succede from the corrupt (first I'd heard of it!) Earth Alliance. I think that got me hooked right there ... maybe it was because I watched too many other series (like "Star Trek") where Earth was never the bad guys and Humans seldom so. The sudden turn-over, the politics, the wonderfulness of that episode ...

Yep, how I explain sometimes the difference between B5 and Star Trek:

Robert Foxworth ("General Hague") on 'Babylon 5' played a fleet commander who turned against the government on Earth and it was a good thing.

Robert Foxworth ("Admiral Leyton") on 'Deep Space 9' played a fleet commander who turned against the government on Earth and it was a bad thing.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Just wanted to add that although it may be a good read, could not say not having read it, "Blood Oath" is not canon.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, JMS said that all the novels are, but in the intro for To Dream in the City of Sorrows (IIRC title correctly), that one was the only *fully* canon in all details novel, so 'canon' as applied to the other novels would be like the Apocrypha. If it happens in a novel, it happens, unless it conflicts with the show. At least, that's the way I understand it.
Darkwing

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

 

[Quagmire]

Not true.

To Dream was 100 percent canon when written, now downgraded to about 95 percent, and "The Shadow Within" is about 70 percent. None of the other numbered books are at all canon. They were written during the series and JMS did not have the time to deal with them. They may be entertaining reads, I said earlier I could not say one way or the other, but they have no ramifications on the B5 universe.

If you look at early messages he says that broad strokes of the early novels could be canon but later he seems to change his position. This change seems to come when JMS becomes more involved with the books and Fiona Avery is hired. The following is one of his later messages on the subject after he had time to become more involved:

(blocked) asks:
> Joe, Which of the paperback books is true to the story?

The Drennan book, just hitting the stands now, is 100% canon;
the Cavelos book, out for a bit now, is about 90% canon. (Those are
books 7 and 9.)

jms


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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

[This message has been edited by Doctor Gonzo (edited February 07, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I would have liked more insight into Shadow society... but everything has its good sides, for now I can imagine it with little "canonical obstruction". Chaos at its best.

As for the Minbari... more, more, more stories about the Minbari, please.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Teekas Dragon]

I can personally say that the books from the Dell series are good reads, despite the fact that almost all of them are not canon. I have six of the nine books, the only ones i'm missing are "Voices", "Clarks Law", "The touch of your shadow, the whisper of your name". Which are books 1, 4, and 5. I got lucky this past week and got a copy of the "B5 Security Guide", which by the way is great. Like i said, most of the books aren't canon, but if you like to read alot and you like B5, then read them but keep in mind that unless your reading books 7 or 9, that they're not true.

Sinc.
Jerome

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I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the One. We die for the one.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
joev5638 said

Ah. Consider that at that point, G'Kar had no government support, yet asked the other Narns to accept his leadership. The Narn in question simply wanted G'Kar to show him that G'Kar was not without power or influence. It was far from political maneuvering by the Narn in question as an attempt to seek power, as he did not ask for the position himself, but only asked G'Kar to step down in favor of "another" if he didn't have the power/influence necessary to effectively lead the Narn resistance. It was far from rebellion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never exactly called it rebellion by the individual Narn. I did point out that even with the common hate for the Centauri and their fierce attitude of "United against All." They did still have political intrigue and dissension, albeit on a small scale. Whereas the Narn could have entrusted G'Kar (Hero of the War, Last surviving member of the Kha-Ri, charismatic leader) blindly, he chose to question G'Kars ability. That's what makes Babylon 5 so realistic, essentially you have every reason to accept the leadership of G'Kar and rally behind him. But you speak up and question his aptitude and his ability, Why?--because that is what would happen in real life.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Kribu said

Heck, even the Vorlons weren't all the same, it was pretty obvious that Kosh and Ulkesh had a different perspective on things! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are quite right. Although in the Vorlon's case, I truly did sense that Kosh was not only different from Ulkesh, but he was different from all the other Vorlons. The Vorlon's philosophy of order probably made them the most monolithic (I like the word you used) race in the B5 universe. The sad thing is that all other Vorlons were more like Ulkesh rather than Kosh.

The idea of unity is a very strong power indeed, but so is the idea of embracing diversity. I believe the ISA was JMS' way of saying that both working together can be something that can endure for a long time.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[Jomar]

I bought and read all the books as they came out and except for 7 and 9 they were definitely not canon. However, some of them were quite good and others were just plain silly. I kept a few and gave the rest away because I never wanted to read them again.


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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.