• The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.

Delenn croaking it

Charming title. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

JMS has made reference to "...Delenn's final journey; a quest involving Valen, though no one around her belieives it."

No specific mention of her finding a body, and that's all he's ever said on the matter, as far as I know.


i know joseph ..
But thats a bit of the Deep humour that i posess /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif
it is a terrible truth though , That i am simply weird
I think that when Delenn dies she will go beond the Rim with with Sheridan and (probably) Valen. (No doubt that comment will start a massive debate!)
Delenn go beyond the rim? I doubt that - the Firstones were the only race(s) old enough and ready to go beyond the rim. The reason Sheridan went was because he had some of Kosh and some of Lorien "inside" him. Having this "Firstones element" in him meant that he would go beyond the rim.

Valen/Sinclair and Delenn are simple Human/Minbari type people - there is no reason why they should travel out of known space when they died - besides, Valen is forever in a cycle, he will never really "die".

I am pretty sure that Sheridan is the only "One" to cross the rim...
Sheridan went beyond the rim because he 'understood'. So did Delenn so I think she would end up going out there as well.
Sinclair (Valen) does die, as a fairly old Minbari with many children and grandchilden, sometime around the early 1300's (Earth Calendar). He is not in a "loop". He's not like that pocket watch in "Somewhere in Time" that was never manufactured - he just has the unusual circumstance of dying before he was born. He was born on Mars in the 2200's and died in the distant past.

I think anybody could go beyond the Rim if someone like Lorien were kind enough to discorporate them - as he did to Sheridan. Unfortunately, Lorien was still sitting down in his hole during the last Shadow War, shaking his head in disgust. Sheridan was the first one to reach him, so he couldn't have taken Valen there, and the last previous migration of First Ones beyond the Rim had been millions of years earlier, so I think Sinclair is out of luck.

Maybe Delenn could go, but in my opinion only if Lorien returned. He didn't seem to have a problem returning after the passage of 20 years, so could he do it after another 80 or so?

I don't know.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Sheridan was the first one to reach him,

This has confused me for some time now. Lorient tells Sheridan that he is the first "to make it this far".

I can't see how this could mean getting that far down to his location. The Shadows and the Vorlons had technology that could do far more than traverse such a short distance.

I assumed Lorien meant that more in a religious sense. Did the Shadows or the Vorlons TRY to reach Lorien in the past, just to be driven away by him? If they didn't try, then why not if they revered him so and knew his location?

Or just why couldn't they just travel down to say "howdee" to him? Let's face it: if Sheridan could fall there, then the Shadows/Vorlons could easily find a way to safely take a small ship down there, right? Or at least a good, long rope? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Sheridan went beyond the rim because he 'understood'. So did Delenn so I think she would end up going out there as well.

[/quote] Illogical for several reasons.

1. Eventually, everything which lives also dies. Everything, even the First Ones, although they only die in conflict. Having either Delenn, Sheridan or Sinclair live longer than they expected would not only make the story illogical, but also diminish what they gave to obtain a better future. It would add a profit motive, present in the actions of First Ones, who more often than not lived to enjoy what they built.

2. If they did not die, they lived. Living, they would have wished to help their world. Such help did not occur, hence they did not exist. Many times again and again, their work was destroyed, rebuilt by others, destroyed again and rebuilt again, slowly improving.

Neither Delenn, Sheridan or Sinclair did anything to direct such events. In situations when they would have acted, they did not act. Hence they no longer existed.

3. Sheridan understood enough to change the future for better. To tell unconditionally that he "understood" would mean understanding something radically different from others. That is clearly untrue.

He understood the world just like others, and some probably understood more. He erred like countless others. He learned like countless others. Loved like countless others, but sometimes also hated, like countless others. He simply chose his direction well, had some good luck, and left behind a world somewhat better.

4. If understanding something would prevent death, countless people should be immortal, because they all understood something. Many leave behind a somewhat better world than they were born into. However, they all die, some without enough time to enjoy what they created. Besides, what happens to the world is never decided by one person, but countless people interacting.

5. Delenn hardly understood more than Sheridan. Sheridan hardly understood more than Delenn. Neither of them hardly understood more than countless other people. There was no qualitative difference. Many worked for a better future, sometimes at great personal cost, sometimes with little reward.

6. Last of all, to have them live longer, we would need someone to interfere. Most people who support this theory say that Lorien could have interfered. However, I would like to point out flaws in that aspect.

7. When Delenn asked how long Sheridan would last, Lorien answered in a manner which clearly implied death in about 20 years. Lorien told of its healing abilities being limited, and giving part of itself to maintain Sheridan (reclaiming that part would explain its coming back to Coriana). Telling one thing and knowing another is called lying. Hence allow me to ask, did Lorien lie?

8. Many people like Sheridan, Delenn and Sinclair might refuse any offer of immortality, if such offer contains the inability to help others (clearly proven by history) and living to see their loved ones die.

Sheridan might not accept such an offer, if that would include living to see Delenn die, living unable to assist, later see billions killed in the next Earth Civil War. Delenn might not accept such an offer, if that would include living to always miss Sheridan, living to see her children die, living to see the galaxy go into hell in a handbasket, living with the knowledge that she would be unable to help.

Valen might not accept such an offer, knowing it will forever separate him from Catherine Sakai. With him, there is however an even greater obstacle. If Valen did not die, the number of Sinclairs/Valens would constantly increase, and soon reach infinity.

Now that prospect is truly scary. An infinite number of Sinclairs would soon fill the entire universe, consume all energy, darken stars and block out galaxies, accumulate in black holes, and eventually cause gravitational collapse, leading to another Big Bang.

Given that Sinclair exhibited some cared for the world he lived in, he would not allow that to happen.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If they did not die, they lived. Living, they would have wished to help their world. Such help did not occur, hence they did not exist.


I don't know about that. Perhaps they were unable to interfere. Or unwilling.

I think we are meant to simply debate as we are debating now. It gives it all a more awesome sense, now having a body to bury or burn. Leaving the old "maybe one day to return" myth.

It is amazing how much that myth has been a part of our history, isn't it? King Arthur, (whoever the German version of that would be, I can't remember the name), and others. In B5 alone: Sinclair, Delen, Sheridan.

It must be a powerful myth
With Delenn and Sheridan, it may make a lovely myth. However with Sinclair, it is materially impossible. If it would be possible, it would crash the universe in one damn spectacular time loop.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If it would be possible, it would crash the universe in one damn spectacular time loop.


Why? As already noted above, there is nothing unusual or "time loopy" about Sinclair's life, except that he dies about 1,000 years before he is born. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif From his own perspective he lives a perfectly linnear life. He's born on Mars, lives 150 years or so, and dies (or disappears) Having him go beyond the Rim at the end of Valen's life doesn't create any temporal problems that have him die wouldn't.

I also don't think your other arguments hold up. We can't deduce that all three are dead from the fact that they ceased to act within the history of the local galaxy and the IA. So did the Shadows, Vorlons and other First Ones. Are we to deduce from this that they're all dead as well, rather than merely removed from the galaxy? (Was Lorien handing out Kool-Aid as they departed? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif)

That they're gone from galactic history merely proves that they're gone from the galaxy - not that they're dead. Sheridan explictly asked Lorien, "Can I come back?" and is told, "No." This implies that there is somewhere to come back from, and that there could still be a Sheridan to make the trip - but that it is either physically impossible or not permitted.

Spoilers for The Lord of the Rings:

<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">Frodo and the other mortals don't die at the end of The Lord of the Rings, either. But their journey to the Undying Lands is strictly one-way, so they are removed from the history of Middle Earth. Tolkein has said that they would die, eventually, still being mortal, but only after many years of "healing" in the extreme West. Since B5 isn't LotR, and species aren't immortal by nature and the will of God, this may or may not be the case with any of the Younger Races taken beyond the Rim.)</font></td></tr></table>

I think the dramatic objections to the notion of all three going beyond the Rim, especially with regard to Sinclair, are much more telling than your "logical" ones.


Where is the lack of logic? Or perhaps we simply understand the concept of a "time loop" differently. In my opinion, a time loop is a point connecting two times, allowing something to pass through.

If the matter which passes through does not decompose to become itself or equivalent to itself (Valen does not die) either its proportion among total mass of the universe, or the total mass of the universe will increase.

<font color="#4090D0">Cycle 1</font color>

One Valen exists somewhere out there (does not die), one Sinclair born.

<font color="#4090D0">Cycle 2</font color>

Two Valens exist somewhere out there (do not die), one Sinclair born.

<font color="#4090D0">Cycle 3</font color>

Three Valens exist somewhere out there (do not die), one Sinclair born.

<font color="#4090D0">Cycle N</font color>

If we assume (like you seemed to) that mass will be constant, all mass in known timespace has been converted into Valens. There is no Earth, no Sun, no Milky Way. Simply endless clusters of Valens.

Alternatively, using my initial assumption, massive clouds of Valens start colliding in the universe, temperature rises to extreme degree, all life stops, expansion stops, gravity forces the universe to collapse.

<font color="#4090D0">Post scriptum:</font color>

Yet now that I think of it, my approach too seems somewhat flawed and illogical. I cannot really get it to work. Perhaps this has something to do with the less-than likely possibility of time travel, producing frequent and difficult paradoxes?

Simply because when Valen arrives, he must have known of a previous Valen, who must have existed. If that Valen did not die, this adds one Valen. However, that previous Valen cannot have existed unless he knew of a previous Valen. If that Valen did not die, this adds another Valen, ad infinitum.
EH!!!!!!!!!! what????????????? uh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gotta' stay off the drugs man!

/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif
I use no drugs. I was simply using logic in a situation where logic must be avoided (namely time travel).
I'm a little confused as to your argument Lennier... any chance of explaining it via hand puppets or diagrams?
Yes, there is a time paradox. But that generally has to do with the notion that you can go into the past and change the outcome. That in itself is a paradox. If the past has already happened, and you've always gone, then your actions have always been a part of your history. There is nothing to change and nothing that can be changed. Know what I mean?

As for the infinite numbers of Valens consuming our Universe (typing the collected works of Shakespeare too?), you lost me there buddy.

The post scriptum about Valen was my best try, before realizing that unless Valen eventually dies, and the particles he brought into past will form Sinclair, and the particles which form B4 will again yield B4, you will have an inevitable paradox either way, no matter how you traverse the loop.

If Valen does die, and his actions don't change the future, simply maintaining the loop, you would still be near a paradox, because Valen bringing exactly as much mass/energy as Sinclair took is terribly unlikely, yet not theoretically impossible.
I don't know where you're getting all these extra Valens from. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Sinclair is born. In 2260 he travels back in time to around the year 1260 C.E. He lives another 100 years or so. He either dies, or is translated into some kind of energy being and goes on.

In the first case Valen and Sinclair never exist simultaneously. Valen dies about 900 years before Sinclair is born. This is not a "time-loop" within Sinclair's own life. He does not return to a certain point and start over. He is born Jeffrey Sinclair, lives a slightly-longer than normal lifespan, then dies as Valen. That he dies 900 years before his birth is an odd circumstance, but does not change the linear nature of his own life and experience. He never goes back in time and meets himself or any of that nonsense.

In the second case, "Valen" in some form continues to exist - but he's off somewhere beyond the Rim and is no longer an actor in the history we are concerned with. So there is still no necessary contradiction. In a true "time loop" the beginning and end points are the same. This is not true of Sinclair. He does not journey back in time to his own birth. That Valen continues to exist and that thirty or forty years of his life overlap with that of Sinclair doesn't change anything.

Sinclair is "the closed circle" only in this sense - that there is no universe in which he did not go back in time to become Valen. Although the crew had a glimpse of such a thing, that glimpse itself was part of the series of invents involved in Sinclair's journey. It isn't like there is an "original" universe where Sinclair didn't go back.

What happens to Valen after he has won the Shadow War and reformed Minbari society is unimportant in that it changes nothing. Dead or merely moved on, he ceases to have an influence on events, and everything continues as it always had.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
He lives another 100 years or so. He either dies, or is translated into some kind of energy being and dies.

[/quote] The problem is that such energy beings live for an awfully long time, actually forever unless something gets them killed. Therefore, when Sinclair goes back, the energy being called Valen is still around somewhere, and so are its counterparts from an infinite number of previous cycles.

When that energy being (who is around) arrived in the past, a previous energy being was still around, and still is, unless he died. After looking to the depth of three cycles, it becomes evident that if "this has always happened", we must have an endless accumulation of "energy being" Valens stashed away somewhere.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but he's off somewhere beyond the Rim and is no longer an actor in the history we are concerned with. So there is still no necessary contradiction.

[/quote] We have a contradiction with the physical laws governing mass, energy and information. For the universe to support an endless supply of such Valens, entropy must not occur, and energy must have no mass. Yet entropy occurs (destroying information unless energy is expended to preserve it) and energy always comes with mass.