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Old January 30th 02, 14:12   #1
jnk5y
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vorlons vs shadows

If all the shadow vessals were run by people and all the vorlon ships are piloted by a vorlon isn't a battle between the two going to always hurt the vorlons more. Am i missing something? And also who's flying the small vorlon and shadow fighters?

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Old January 30th 02, 14:16   #2
A_Ranger
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

Of course it's going to hurt them more. That's why they created telepaths, planet killers, and tried to manipulate the other races into doing it first

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Old January 30th 02, 14:53   #3
**DONOTDELETE**
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

I think most of the fighters on both sides are remote-controlled. As for general strategy... it is quality versus quantity.

As the Vorlons participate directly, they risk with their own lives and naturally use quality ships. Their ships are powerful, their telepathic ability can easily distract Shadow vessels. One Vorlon cruiser may easily fight against several Shadow vessels.

The Shadows avoid direct battle, considering it inefficient. They build/grow more ships than the Vorlons, equip them with the cheapest and most powerful computers (living beings) and send them to their death, only to build more. At least that is their usual practise.

They might choose to personally fly their planetkillers, but the strange structure (or lack thereof) of the Shadow planetkiller leaves it unclear how it is guided.

Given that the Shadows had to travel long before the current generation of battlecrabs came into existence, they might use different ships where their personal safety is concerned.

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Old January 30th 02, 15:23   #4
RW7427
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

Right. I think that is part of the reason why you don't see the Vorlons directly engaging the Shadows. They know they could lose their own people when the Shadows are just losing people like humans that they have stuck inside their ships. Plus they have that ages old rule about not fighting each other directly. So if the Shadows are plugging people into their ships and the Vorlons are using races like the Humans and Minbari to fight for them, then they can oppose each other without crossing the line and violating the agreements made with each other long ago.

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Old January 30th 02, 23:23   #5
whitestar90
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

Thats right and when the vorlons openly engaged the shadows even though vorlon ships seemed more powerful but the price for the victory was that Kosh had to surrender himself to darkness....

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Old January 31st 02, 02:38   #6
bakana
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

You are assuming that a Living, Intelligent Vorlon ship NEEDS a Pilot.

A Vorlon ship IS the pilot.

And, if the Shadows are never in Their ships and so don't "care" about their ship losses, Why were they so annoyed with Kosh that they killed him??

The only good explanation for Kosh being killed is that there Was a Shadow in at least One of the ships the Vorlons destroyed.

The Shadow ships tend to get a little bit carried away when not being restrained.
They may prefer to supervise groups of them in person so they can be sure that what gets destroyed is what they Wanted destroyed.
And not everything Else, too.

An Shadow ship assigned to destroy a Settlement will try to destroy the entire Planet if not restrained.



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Old January 31st 02, 03:29   #7
eirik
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

The Technomage trilogy was canon.
In the trilogy, we learn about the

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>awesome power of the mages. They could tap into the 'power of the universe' or something to that effect. Put in a little more perspective, Galen could unleash a tremendous amount of power due to implants within his body. Talk about POWER DENSITY!

If Galen's implants can act as a conduit of such incredible power, imagine what a larger conduit could do, assuming size does matter (We are talking about fantasy physics. Hell, anything involving such high energy and interdimensional physics is awfully fantastic given our current state of understanding.).

Okay, so assuming bigger conduits yield bigger bangs, a very reasonable assumption, imagine what First Ones, Shadows and Vorlons, could do. They could wield incredible destruction well beyond what we saw with their planet killers, yes their planet killers.</font></td></tr></table>

I suspect that Lorien intervened to mediate the formation of rules of engagement between the Vorlons and Shadows to prevent or stop the massive destruction that unconstrained clashes between them could/did yield. Thus, the rules of engagement specified the types of weaponary/equipment that was permissable in addition to how it could be used.

Further, they probably agreed upon rules about what they could and couldn't do with the younger races.

Perhaps, they were not permitted to genetically engineer new species entirely. I know the Vorlons modified the genetic code of many to introduce telepathy to many races. But this is far different from engineering species from scratch.

Anyway, because of the Technomage trilogy, I believe that the Shadow and Vorlon spacecraft were intentionally limited in their capabilities and that they could easily have wielded far more powerful weaponary.

I've been wondering if JMS was 100% comfortable with this implication that the trilogy made. I'm not saying it is a glaring contradiction. I'm saying that it is a very influential element in the B5 universe.

You see, I find it interesting that, while clearly more advanced than the technology of the younger races, the First One's spacecraft seem somewhat conventional compared to what they should be capable of doing considering what we learn in the mage trilogy.

That said, the combat we witnessed between the Shadows and Vorlons were essentially just conflicts among their chess pieces. I don't think we ever saw or read about anything that the Vorlons or Shadows would consider capital ships by their standards. Thank goodness too, because they'd be so incredibly powerful.

Now, tying this to the Rangers tapestry (a spoiler for those that may not have seen it),

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>the 'Hand' are considered First One's. They are NOT, as far as we know, constrained by any rules of engagement. In fact, from what we know of them, the other First One's banished them BECAUSE the 'Hand' were so reckless and destructive.

Finally, consider what the 'Hand' could do in the B5 universe in the absence of the First One's. Given these points, I think the 'Hand' have not re-entered our dimension yet. However, they have found a way to communicate and influence our dimension. This would explain why they haven't simply overwhelmed the younger races with their incredibly destructive 'power of the universe' technology. I suspect that they're trying to get a younger race(s) to construct a "gate" so that the 'Hand' can return to our dimension and kick ass in an unthinkable manner.</font></td></tr></table>

Well, lots of fun.

Eirik

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Old January 31st 02, 03:38   #8
Jade Jaguar
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

From all the discussion I have seen, it is generally accepted that Kosh was killed because he broke the longstanding rules of engagement with the Shadows, by having the Vorlons attack them directly, so I don't think it was just the loss of Shadow ships per se, with or without Shadows aboard that caused them to target Kosh.

That said, I can't prove it, but I have always assumed that there were at least a few Shadows aboard each capital ship, and probably a few soldiers of darkness too, sort of like a Marine gaurd. But as to who or what controls a Battle Crab, I don't have a good idea. I don't think they are run by human CPUs, or run themselves since they are organic tech, but there are times when we see Battle Crabs alone, so that would seem to rule out remote control by near by capital ships. So my best guess is that they used the pods later placed in Centauri vessels.

As to the Vorlons, we know their ships are sentient organic beings, but I still think that at least their capital ships had a Vorlon or two aboard to direct their actions. Perhaps the little Vorlon fighters used the Vorlon equivalent of a pod too.

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Old January 31st 02, 03:58   #9
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

At the end of the war we saw that although the Vorlons may have seemed different to the shadows initially ( and Kosh definitely was!) they eventually sank to a level rather similar to the shadows way of doing things. Who is to say that the Vorlons and Shadows are not very few in number? I mean if you look at some of the older races that joined in the fight, there were no mass fleets. There was one ship at best to represent that specific species!
I think that the Vorlons achieved the same end as the shadows. Telepathically powered ships. Shadows forced the telepathic angle but the Vorlons could have induced greater telepathic strength, Lyta for example! Nobody ever saw the inside of a Vorlon ship.
We at least saw schematics for the Shadow interior, run by a human telepath. The Vorlons had a habit of abducting humans, remember Jack the ripper? who is to say they didn't make off with human telepaths in the past?
Just a thought!

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Old January 31st 02, 05:15   #10
eirik
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Re: vorlons vs shadows

On the point about conducting or controlling the Shadow battlecrabs, we learned from the mage trilogy that it is

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the "Eye" </font></td></tr></table>

that does so.

Eirik

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