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View Poll Results: Good Idea?
A -- Excellent 18 42.86%
B -- Good 14 33.33%
C -- Average 9 21.43%
D -- Poor 1 2.38%
F -- Failure 0 0%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 12th 06, 21:17   #31
hypatia
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

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One, who among us would be brave enough to take one for the home team?
I agree with much of what you say, Jacqui. But...

handing yourself over to a murderous enemy in these circumstances is just STUPID.

Sorry, it's not that I don't like this episode. It's actually my favorite episode of B5, ever.

But I see that decision of Brad's character to be an indication of his mental confusion and a need to feel he's "paid' for his sins.

I don't see that as taking one for the home team. The home team would have been a hell of a lot better off if he'd managed to stay calm and work it out rationally.

But that would have robbed us of that beautiful ending.
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Old January 12th 06, 22:48   #32
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

Hi Hypatia!

Actually, I was making a reference to the Biblical Gathsemane and Jesus. One of those early portent-laden analogies of Sheridan as Christ-like figure, played out with another, more expendable character in the role of sacrificial lamb. That's also how poor Brother Edward thought of it as well, hence his comments about not knowing whether or not, should the ultimate sacrifice be asked of him, like Jesus in the Garden, would he be able to surrender himself up to the mob and destiny.

I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte. What is the nature of forgiveness and sacrifice, and also the meaning of justice versus punishment. It certainly left Sheridan speechless and the expression on Brother Theo's face was pricelss as he delivered the final message.

And yes. . .a truly touching ending.

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Old January 13th 06, 00:27   #33
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

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I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte.
My point is that it wasn't a terrible loss as much as a terrible waste. But yes, for the reason you mention, it was absolutely necessary for the ultimate "now, what about when YOU are the one so effected?" angle that is so neatly pulled off at the end.

I just have to see it as a bad choice by brother Edwards, and not a necessary sacrifice.

Hee hee, but is that like saying "why DIDN'T Socrates just... lay off of people for awhile?", isn't it?
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Old January 13th 06, 13:19   #34
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

I always thought it sad that Brother Edward didn't extend the same hope of forgiveness to himself that he would have to anyone else.

Had he been approached by an individual tortured by his past deeds, he would have strapped himself to that person's side, bent on making them understand there is forgiveness.

I think the mind swipe itself, the shock of realizing who he had been and what he'd done, all played a part in his final decision.
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Old January 13th 06, 13:38   #35
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

Or unhinged him. I just find the episode so much easier to make sense of if I see his decision as being one made during a mentally clouded moment.

And very good point, Boxie: he would never have demanded this of anyone. But then, that fits into the fable perfectly, too, doesn't it?
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Old January 13th 06, 19:53   #36
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

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Or unhinged him. I just find the episode so much easier to make sense of if I see his decision as being one made during a mentally clouded moment.
Yeah, that's I mean...I think this was a "clouded" decision. Didn't Garibaldi say that no one really knows the long-term effects of the mind-sweep? Is it possible then that, once someone remembers, they could ... flip out... act irrationally, etc... and possibly do something neither the old or new personality would have done?
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Old January 14th 06, 12:39   #37
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

That certainly makes sense to me.
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Old January 15th 06, 02:59   #38
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

I think part of the reason he effectively committed suicide is that he was afraid that his old, murderous personality was reemerging, and he couldn't live with that possibility, or allow the risk to others. Douriff is one of my favorite, under-appreciated actors, and has been since I saw One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, when it first came out.
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Old January 15th 06, 11:25   #39
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

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I think part of the reason he effectively committed suicide is that he was afraid that his old, murderous personality was reemerging, and he couldn't live with that possibility, or allow the risk to others.
I completely agree with you on this. That's why he "sacrificed" himself, "took one for the home team," or however you'd like to label it. The very idea of the serial killer in him reemerging drove him to it.

How was the death of personality carried out? My brain is like a sieve these days. Did the Psi Corps do it? If so. . .now that IS a terrifying thought. . .talk about a weapon for pacification. We mundanes wouldn't stand a chance.

And on another note, if you're a Douriff fan, don't miss his performance as Doc Cochran in Deadwood. He's more than brilliant. He's mezmerizing!

Jacqui
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Old January 15th 06, 13:56   #40
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Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane

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How was the death of personality carried out? My brain is like a sieve these days. Did the Psi Corps do it? If so. . .now that IS a terrifying thought. . .talk about a weapon for pacification. We mundanes wouldn't stand a chance.
It wasn't absolutely specified I'm pretty sure that the telepaths only scan before and after but the wipe is done mechanically somehow. In 'The Quality of Mercy' the Ombuds said:

"...It is therefore the decision of this court that you be sentenced to the death of personality. You will be committed under guard to a medlab facility, where you will be telepathically scanned, and then brainwiped. The personality of Karl Edward Mueller will be totally and completly erased. After a second scan to determine that the personality that committed the crimes has been eradicated, you will then be programmed with a new set of memories...."

And in the next scene Franklin mentions that he'll need to check over the equipment to make sure the process is painless.
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