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Old March 20th 05, 16:01   #51
2aMageing
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Re: The Minbari suck

Ok, I'm takin a hack now.

You'd take the genocidal NONhypocritical race over the peace encouraging TWOfaced race?





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Old March 20th 05, 17:14   #52
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Re: The Minbari suck

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You'd take the genocidal NONhypocritical race over the peace encouraging TWOfaced race?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that "peace encouraging" race you're talking about was hell bent on eliminating all races that didn't agree with their philosophy. And genocide wasn't the goal of the Shadows ... if it was, they could have destroyed everyone thousands of years ago.
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Old March 20th 05, 18:04   #53
2aMageing
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Re: The Minbari suck

I recall no place where the Vorlons were lookin to wipe out any RACES. They took out PLANETS.....and only with goal of removing SHADOW influence (not terribly good either, but a fair sight short of genocide).

And just what do ya think the shadows were trying to do 1000 years ago.....say Hi?

The only reason the universe was not short by a half dozen races currently compared to then, was thanks to the Minbari, Vorlons, and who ever else had signed up to beat back the killers.

The Shadows are killers....they accomplish their intents on top of the bodies of the dead (conflict, WARs), the Vorlons are about order, and they most likely have killed to obtain that goal, but I think it's quite safe to say that their scale of murder is significantly smaller than the Shadows.

Nice try, and thanks for playing.

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Old March 20th 05, 18:44   #54
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Re: The Minbari suck

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I recall no place where the Vorlons were lookin to wipe out any RACES. They took out PLANETS.....and only with goal of removing SHADOW influence (not terribly good either, but a fair sight short of genocide).

Unfortunately those planets were populated! That classes as genocide in my book! The Vorlons and Shadows were as bad as each other. The Vorlons had the slight advantage of having one...count them...ONE member of their species who had some compassion and understanding of the younger species. Other than that, the Vorlons only wanted people around who would obey them. They were quite happy to wipe out anyone who disagreed with them.
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Old March 20th 05, 18:47   #55
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Re: The Minbari suck

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I recall no place where the Vorlons were lookin to wipe out any RACES. They took out PLANETS.....and only with goal of removing SHADOW influence
So those were unpopulated planets they took out ... my bad.

Quote:
And just what do ya think the shadows were trying to do 1000 years ago.....say Hi?
It certainly wasn't genocide, as you previously said. If killing all of the younger races were their overall goal they could have done it a million times over.

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The only reason the universe was not short by a half dozen races currently compared to then, was thanks to the Minbari, Vorlons, and who ever else had signed up to beat back the killers.
The only reason the galaxy was not short by more races was because the Shadows had accomplished their goal of culling the herd. To go any further than they did probably would have meant destroying the herd entirely.

Quote:
The Shadows are killers....they accomplish their intents on top of the bodies of the dead (conflict, WARs), the Vorlons are about order, and they most likely have killed to obtain that goal, but I think it's quite safe to say that their scale of murder is significantly smaller than the Shadows.

The Vorlons and the Shadows are both mass murderers ... getting into a discussion on who murdered more is a pointless debate that I'm not about to get into. I suspect the reason why you and so many other people "like" the Vorlons and "hate" the Shadows is because B5 is largely told from the perspective of the Vorlons and their allies. The Vorlons are these mystical, wise, old creatures that "care" about the younger races and even look like heavenly angels.

Bullshit.

The Vorlons are a bunch of hypocritical, self-righteous, jealous ego-manical psychopaths that must have total obedience at all times or they will punish and/or kill you. Instead of sheparding the younger races like they were supposed to do, they messed around with their genetic structures so that they would appear as heavenly angels -- how fucked up is that? Then they "create" telepaths on countless worlds without any thought to the consequences -- how many people have died as a result of that decision?

I'm not saying that the Shadows are any better than the Vorlons, but at least they're not pretending to be something that they're not.
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Old March 20th 05, 19:28   #56
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Re: The Minbari suck

I am no slave to presentation perspective. I have a harsh view of the Vorlons. I just think they AT LEAST have a healthier intent going for them than the Shadows did. It is NOT simply a case of being handed a "good" guy and a "bad" guy, and eating it up.
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Old March 20th 05, 19:51   #57
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Re: The Minbari suck

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I just think they AT LEAST have a healthier intent going for them than the Shadows did.
Believe it or not, I think their intentions were both the same -- to shepard the younger races into first one status. They just went about it in drastically different ways. Of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they both proved.
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Old March 20th 05, 20:11   #58
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Re: The Minbari suck

And humanity is acting as a good student in the keeping of such roads well paved.........
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Old March 20th 05, 22:37   #59
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Re: The Minbari suck

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The only reason the universe was not short by a half dozen races currently compared to then, was thanks to the Minbari, Vorlons, and who ever else had signed up to beat back the killers.
If the Vorlons would stop being proud and stubborn and insist on hanging around and screwing with the development of other races, the Shadows wouldn't be around either. Each side was there to out-do the other.

At least with the Shadows you know what you're dealing with. Londo was "fooled" by them but he is to blame for dealing with the devil and even he understands that. Delenn was suckered but it's not really her fault- the Vorlons pretend to be gods and even screw with genetics to achieve that.
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Old March 20th 05, 23:25   #60
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Re: The Minbari suck

Certainly the Shadows were a nasty bunch... and fairly distanced from any principle of preserving life.

When asking their questions, and fulfilling received wishes... they probably knew consequences with notable precision. They probably also took initiative, without anyone requesting... in causing similar consequences.

They were willing to fulfill a wish... even if it meant utter contravention of other wishes. Their priciples of operation did not seem to include any ethical calculation -- just offering resources to whoever happened to accept.

They probably knew to single-number precision... how many civilians destroyed colonies and later refugee ships contained. They likewise knew how many casualties unraveling social frameworks would cause among beings of limited independence.

But to my understanding... they didn't take initative in snuffing out any species. Their previous wars caused civilizations to die... but I fail to locate a mention... of them having destroyed another civilization directly.

In the last Shadow war... they did employ weapons of mass destruction... but only after Vorlons initiated their use. Then they responded... and responded with just as much wanton devastation.

---------

Vorlons never directly caused inter-civilization conflict.

However, the alterations they forced within civilizations... directly caused loss of individual lives, choices and freedoms. For example, their creation of telepaths among Humans... cost many choices, freedoms and lives... across many years... and kept costing.

Where Vorlons held influence... one might suspect that diversity was not tolerated, individuality was alien... and even if those who conformed could peacefully live out their lives... what their lives brought... was decided by others.

Where Shadows demanded "take initiative or perish", Vorlons demanded "accept authority or perish". Where Shadows played a system against another system... Vorlons played the system against individuals.

Over the centuries and millennia which passed between Shadow wars... Vorlons probably caused equal loss. It was merely that Shadow movement caused intense destruction... while Vorlon activities were low-key, and quietly took their toll.

In the last Shadow war... Vorlons were likewise the first to destroy an inhabited planet (and the next few, until Shadows responded).

---------

For an individual member of the younger races... the effect of seriously obstructing a Shadow... would probably result in injury or death.

Getting into the way of a Vorlon... would more likely preserve physical health. The individual involved would merely start doing things their's previous personality would have refused... making choices their's previous personality would never have made.

--------

I perceive both depicted civilizations... as absolutely unacceptable with regard to which *means* they employed. If they had a disagreement, they should have gone after each other.

With regard to goals and ideas... I perceive the Vorlons as outdated, expecting beings capable of choice to submit to pre-made choices... and Shadows as too demanding, expecting limited and fragile beings to safely handle choices of great consequence.
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