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Old September 15th 13, 22:54   #51
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by vacantlook View Post
I think the biggest thing that hurt season 5 was the ending of the Earth civil war having been squeezed into the end of season 4, what with jms thinking they wouldn't even get a season 5 and all. If season 4 had ended with Sheridan's capture as the original plan was to be, then there would've been a ton of drama that we all know and love happening there in the beginning of season 5.
That happened because PTEN went down and another home for B5 Season 5 wasn't found until the last minute, long after JMS had been told to wrap things up in Season 4. If B5 would have just gone to The WB/The CW (a much better home for sci-fi/fantasy), but The/WB/The CW was spiteful re. PTEN. Warner Brothers, PTEN and The WB/The CW are like the most dysfunctional, cut-throat family you could ever imagine.
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Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 15th 13, 22:56   #52
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by ranger phil View Post
if battlestar galactica can get a remake, then i'm sure Babylon 5 more than deserves a reboot.
Nah, they'd just f*ck it up worse the second time around.
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Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 15th 13, 23:32   #53
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
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Originally Posted by KoshN View Post

* The Legend of the Rangers awfulness was caused by The Sci-Fi Channel wanting a different story, not a tying up of the Crusade dangling threads, was severely hobbled by the loss of 1993-1998 Babylon 5 and Crusade resources due to Warner Brothers near total lack of vision and faith, and a $3 million budget made infinitely worse by the lack of resources previously mentioned.
I'm sorry but you can't blame Sci-Fi for LOTR.
I MOST CERTAINLY CAN. They are the ones who FORCED things in that direction, away from Crusade's storyline continuing. JMS should have said "Fine, you don't want to continue Crusade's story and wrap things up? The library of resources we built up over all those years is gone? I'm supposed to create a miracle for $3 million? I'm outta here. Find somebody else to make your Sci-Fi Original movie in every bad sense of that designation."

Pebble #1: TNT screws over JMS and Crusade in the hope of getting out of paying for Crusade, so they can buy Law & Order reruns.

Pebble #2: Upon Crusade going down, Warner Brothers wants to pull all Babylon 5 universe resources back to themselves, and then they lose, destroy or sell 99% of it.

Pebble #3: Sci-Fi wants to OWN their own B5 universe TV show.

Pebble #4: Warner Brothers won't let Sci-Fi (part of Universal) own a B5 TV show.

Pebble#5: We get a half-assed TV movie (B5: LotR) which is hamstrung by Pebble #2.

Pebble #6: Five years go by and we get an even less substantial, Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark, consisting of two 36 minute mini-episodes, on the same budget as Pebble #5.

Since Crusade, everything has been a feeble shadow of what has gone before. The avalanche has buried all hope of anything new and good in the B5/Crusade universe, UNLESS somebody gets some FAITH and ponies up the cash to do it, not some half-hearted, cheapass attempt, but a REAL, GOOD FAITH ATTEMPT.

Continue and finish the Crusade storyline. Reboot it if you must, BUT DO IT and DO IT RIGHT.


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They didn't write the script, cast the actors or come up with that laughable combat system the woman was using.
Sci-Fi forced things in that direction when they refused to continue the Crusade storyline, wanting something new and different.


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There was a hint of something great, and a series with recasting could have fixed a lot of it.
What hint?!? All but about five minutes of the thing was embarrassing. The best thing about the whole thing was when Martel hit his head and Dulann came back with his best line. I feel bad that Andreas was last seen in the B5 universe in that crappy thing.



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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
But the night it aired I switched between it and the Patriots game. I had to rewatch it to see everything. I think the leads were pretty bad and G'Kar was misused.
IF I would've coaxed B5 newbies to watch it with me, I'd have been embarrassed. I'm glad that I watched it alone.


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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
It's too bad that there's no real venue for classic Science Fiction on cable TV.
There is, on ME-TV, but that's an NBC subchannel, connected with Universal, NOT Warner Brothers. The CW would be a natural fit IF Warner Brothers wasn't do damned intent on it being a teeny-bopper channel. Supernatural (WB) does well there and is on Season 8. The Dresden Files could do well there IF they were faithful to the books. Babylon 5 and Crusade could do well there, IF Warner Brothers would use the jaws of life to pry oven their wallet and bring the effects (especially early B5 effects) up to today's standards.

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It's also too bad that WB will never pay the costs of updating the effects in B5, especially for the scenes where it's mixed with live action.
AGREED for all scenes containing special effects.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 15th 13, 23:38   #54
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
A continuation of Babylon 5 is of no interest to me. The series finale was a fine end to that universe as far as I'm concerned. JMS lost something after Season 4 of B5.
Well, yeah, he lost a ton of money, two of his cast, and one shooting day per episode, which adds up to 3 lost weeks of production time over the course of the year. He also lost his outlines for the first batch of the season, *AND* he was doing those useles movies, *AND* he was getting Crusade going.

So basically what he lost was focus. He had too many irons in an unfriendly fire, and I think it drove the quality of the last season down.

As to Crusade, after it ended, there's the story that JMS was having dinner with Harlan Ellison, and the Harlan said "I'm glad that show's done. It wasn't your best work." So i wasn't just us fans who thought that.
It's hard to do your best work when you're kicked in the balls and sabotaged at every turn by TNT. JMS didn't have that with B5. TNT tried to make life Hell making Crusade. They didn't want to improve it; they wanted JMS to quit so they could get out of paying for it and instead use the money for Law & Order reruns. That's what I call a hostile work environment, and it probably bled over into the cast and caused problems there (e.g with Gary Cole).
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 00:07   #55
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raw Shark View Post
TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),
TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain.
YES, THEY ARE THE VILLAIN!!! They are the reason for the lower budget, the reduced shooting schedule (1 day less per episode). They forced that.

Claudia is also a villain. She caused the big problems at the start of Season 5. She was the reason we are now stuck with Lochley (Scoggins). See, it's a lasting poison.


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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.
Back when Babylon 5 and Crusade could have gone to The Sci-Fi Channel, TNT held onto them and reran B5 to death. What they asked Sci-Fi for the B5 and Crusade reruns was called a ransom note.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-177...ntinue Crusade



http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-176...rusade Rangers
Q: You trust them? After Crusade, after Rangers, you believe them?

JMS: Warner’s has never actually lied. What happened with TNT and Crusade was a different situation where they said, after we started making the show, they [TNT] said they weren’t getting a new audience with science fiction and they wanted to get out of the deal at TNT. Which is a different division over here and they set about to sabotage the show. And then Rangers was a good show and Sci-Fi would’ve picked it up except that it wasn’t owned by Universal, it was owned by Warner Bros. and the deal was not something they wanted to get into. But Warner’s themselves have always been very stand-up. With B5 itself, starting with episode 2 of year 2, they never gave us any notes. They just brought in the guy who’d been our liaison on B5 the series, a guy named Greg Maday, to be our liaison on this as well. Greg’s a great guy; he’s a former Jesuit student, a scholar. Seriously, he’s a really smart guy and understands story and he’s coming back to be our liaison. Very smart guy. So Warner’s, yeah, I do trust them. They actually have kept their promises to me. The contract negotiation was a different scenario but that’s just business. Creatively they’ve been great.


Q: I’m curious about how much of the Babylon 5 tool kit you still have available to use for your project. For example, the old CG tools, or props, sets, costumes, that kind of thing. In other words, go you have to start from the ground up?

JMS: We have some stuff but not a lot. Over the years Warner’s has used it for other stuff, other shows, sold it off, lost it. The costume inventory…when we closed Babylon 5 we had racks that went from there to there [indicates the width of the room which sat about 40 people across], like four of them. We asked them what they had and it was from there to there [indicates about one third of the room across]. I said “What’d you *do*? So to some extent we have to start over with that. But that’s fine; due to wear and tear over time, it happens. They’re a great studio but every studio has its problems. We were constrained when we re-edited the pilot movie, some things we couldn’t do, there was stuff we couldn’t incorporate in the re-edit because Warner’s had stored the film, the originals and the negatives and the prints in this one vault which was cracked. Rats got in and ate the negatives. Somewhere there’s a Narn rat running around right now. Or a Centauri rat. Their storage facilities aren’t the best although their intentions are. So to a large extent we’re starting over on stuff.
************************************************** **

That's all well and good UNTIL you have to re-create the stuff and you don't have the budget to do so. Then, you're screwed,



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I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.
Byron is the single worst character in Season 5.. Lochley is a close second.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 00:25   #56
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
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Originally Posted by Raw Shark View Post
TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),
TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain. They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Think about it: We don't NEED Byron at all. We've got Lyta. What, Lyta has to be TOLD to lead the Telepaths? We've seen her grow more and more unhappy with the situation over the years, and get stronger both as a person and a teep. The idea that some man needs to come to the station and hold her by the hand and teach her how to be a leader is both ludicrous and condescending. I mean, does someone need to teach Sheridan how to be President? Or Garibaldi how to run Edgars? Did someone need to hold G'kar's hand and teach him how to be a poet/prophet guy? No. So why does Lyta need it?

I think the story would have played much, much, much better if Lyta just went to Sheridan and said "I want a homeland for my people. You owe me this." Sheridan could say something like, "Ok. We'll need time to negotiate this with the other races, and see if anyone is willing to donate a world. In the meantime, you can set up a colony on the station here." It could have been the exact same sub-par story otherwise, and it would have played much, much, much better.

Ideally, it should have been about Lyta, but really it was a story in which Lyta was second bananna.
Apparently Byron was supposed to be matched with Ivanova. Something along the lines of making up for her mistakes with Marcus.

If we wouldn't have lost Ivanova, we wouldn't have lost Marcus.




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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
I don't think the story would have been much better with that kind of twist. The telepaths around Byron played like True Blood vampires or something. It was just a mess.
Hard to tell given all of the variables involved. None of this would have happened if PTEN hadn't gone under, the various parts of Warner Brothers hadn't been spiteful (The WB/The CW re. PTEN, TNT re. B5 & Crusade, Warner Brothers re. ownership of B5), and Universal insisting on ownership of a piece of B5. If only they'd have worked together for the benefit of all. No, you're not going to get ALL of the profits, but you're going to get SOMETHING.


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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
Having Ivanova would have removed Lochley though0. That would have been a major improvement.
YES!


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Originally Posted by JonFrain View Post
You can tell from quotes that JMS treated the loss of Ivanova as being good for the story and adding tension. That may have worked with a better actress. But she got too much air time and even ruined Lost Tales.
If JMS said that, I think that was just him trying to put a good face on things.


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JMS was also adamant that Evan Chen was a good composer. But the soundtrack totally distracted from the material most of the time.
I got used to Evan Chen's music in Crusade, EXCEPT where it was just too loud, and the "music" (noise: baby crying, dog barking, etc.) over the end titles of "Ruling from the Tomb." Then, it was distracting and ridiculously awful, in that order.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 00:46   #57
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
Honestly, they probably could have crammed the whole Telepath war into 7 episodes if they'd tried. IT's not like there was anything of note going on in the station.
The Telepath War is set to happen between 2263 and 2266, not IN 2262. I can't remember if it was supposed to have ended before B5: LotR.

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I should mention that I wouldn't mind the character (Lochley) *AT ALL* if she'd been brought in as, say, the new XO of the station. "Ivonova, you're in charge, but having a loyal Earthforce officer as XO would go a LONG way towards smoothing over difficulties, so here's Commander Lochley."
Not bad. That would've made for some tension. However, Claudia prevented that.


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Ok, I'm going to say the most arogant thing I've ever said, and I don't mean it with any disrespect, but here it is: JMS should not be in charge of the B5 universe anymore.
What, like George Lucas and Star Wars? I disagree with respect to JMS and B5 universe. I think he should be in charge sans the meddling (e.g. like TNT's Crusade meddling), and with a proper budget, necessary to re-create all that Warner Brothers lost, sold or destroyed.
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Likewise, I don't think JMS should be driving the B5-wagon anymore. He can program the mapquest if he likes, he can cheerlead. I'd definitely want to read all his notes before proceeding, but the fact is that the guy has had 15 years to continue the story, and he hasn't, can't, or simply won't.
Warner Brothers support keeps evaporating. Lucy and the football.

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I don't claim to know who CAN, but clearly he's not going to get anywhere by himself.
Not without the funding and a venue to air the show. Warner Brothers is lacking on both counts. It is Warner Brothers that B5 should be taken away from, but THEY won't let it go anywhere else. They'd rather it DIE that go to another studio and be revived. They want it all for themselves, and if they can't make a go of it, they'll make sure nobody can. They're like TNT (a part of Warner Brothers) in that respect. It is Warner Brothers that is the problem, not JMS.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 00:47   #58
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Just touching on one aspect of a really long post...

Are you under the impression that we saw the Telepath War? Because we didn't, not by a long shot. What we saw was a flashpoint and the process by which Lyta was brought from being a doormat to a rebellion leader.

Jan
Getting caught up. Boy is this a BEAR!
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 01:46   #59
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 View Post
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Originally Posted by KoshN View Post
He wanted to do it in 2001, when Sci-Fi Channel threw a monkeywrench in the plans by wanting their own new show in the B5 universe. Yeah, the Hell with dangling threads; those don't bother anybody! {DRIPPING WITH SARCASM} Damned idiots! Then Warners wanted to retain ownership of everything in the TV B5 universe and Universal wanted to OWN their B5 show. THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUED CRUSADE, you know, back BEFORE most of the B5 resources were lost, sold or destroyed. But Nooooooooo! as HELL!
Well, I'm never gonna' defend Skiffy, as they're all a bunch of idiots who seemed to hate their own target demographic much of the time. However Skiffy was making a hard push at generating a lot of original programming at the time. Basically, if Skiffy had picked up Crusade, they claim it would have cost them as much money as producing 2 or 3 original shows. Given their MO at the time was "Get as much on the air as we can, and screw quality," this seems reasonable.
Quantity over quality, yeah I want to watch a channel like that. NOT!!!!!!

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Also, look at it from a suit POV:
No, I'd need a lobotomy first. No thanks.


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You're asking them to invest 3 shows worth of money to buy a show that just FAILED on another network.
You have to look at WHY it failed. You can't just think that it failed there, so it will fail here, too. The audiences are different.


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This show was a spinoff to a show that generated very soft ratings, and was, itself, CANCELLED in first-run syndication.
This wouldn't have happened on a sci-fi friendly channel that has an audience that wants to see sci-fi. If only Warners had such a channel, oh yeah, THE CW. Oops, no, wait, they hate B5 because they hated PTEN, so nobody wins. Ain't life grand for Warner Brothers sci-fi properties that can't get on The CW?



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BECAUSE of all of TNT's MEDDLING, that we later found out was done so that JMS would quit and TNT could use that as grounds for canceling the show, when they REALLY wanted to cancel it because their core (wrestling/sports/mainstream drama audience) didn't like science-fiction (e.g. Babylon 5). This was discovered when survey results came in after B5 Season 5 was done and Crusade had filmed 5 episodes. TNT wanted to cancel Crusade, get out of paying for it, and use the money for Law & Order reruns.
Well, the "Meddling" bit is new to me,
WHAT?!?!?!?!? Where were you in the summer of 1999? It was all over the net. Go to jmsnews.com and search on Crusade.



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but, yeah, they had buyer's remorse. It's understandable. They plunked 20 million bucks into a cult-fave that didn't draw ratings, and seemed to actually alienate some of its fans. Who'd want to plunk 100 million into five more years of that?
They screwed it up in damn near every possible. I think they INVENTED new ways to screw it up. "A Call to Arms" was supposed to air before the first Crusade episode, Racing the Night. However, TNT aired "A Call to Arms" in January, and then didn't air Crusade until JUNE. Then, they wanted a traditional pilot episode, instead of airing "A Call to Arms" as the intro. to Crusade. So, JMS had to write a pliot ep., War Zone." Then what does TNT do, they air War Zone, and then air A Call to Arms right after it, and then air the episodes that were meant to be aired FIRST, LAST. Then, on the first airing, Crusade was pushed around by the NBA draft (The Path of Sorrows aired at midnight, AFTER the f-ing NBA draft.), by JFK Jr.'s plain crash coverage, etc.

The creation of War Zone meant that we never got Value Judgements (the Bester episode). So, we got a superfluous episode and lost an episode which would have been a magnet for B5 fans.

We also never got To the Ends of the Earth and End of the Line, two episodes that would have been blockbusters.



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He does seem to have made a half-hearting pitch to Warners for a Trek TV Series rebook that COULD be taken as an attempt to re-purpose the Crusade storyline, but it's JMS, so we'll never know.
I don't think it could be taken as that.
Why not? I mean, I'm willing to say I misinterpreted it, but have you got anything that would support the idea that it wasn't?
Do you honestly think that JMS would stoop to pitching a reboot of TOS to somehow wheedle the Crusade storyline into it? I don't. The stories are too different.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 16th 13, 02:03   #60
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Re: Aborted Reboot

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Warner Brothers who LOST all of the CGI files
I heard tell it wasn't that they lost them, it was that they deliberately demanded their return, then wiped 'em. I heard this was an intellectual property move, I've also heard it was ostensibly to prevent piracy. I've also heard that they didn't figure they'd be of any future worth. I've also heard that they just didn't trust Netter Digital.

In any event, most of the rumors I hear are that it was deliberate. But it may not be.

Any way you slice it, it comes up stupid. Honestly, Warners doesn't make much sense to me most of the time.
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