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Old April 28th 12, 11:33   #1
Dagon
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Dius Vintari

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction with this character. In Voices in the Dark, he is specifically stated to be the son of Emperor Cartagia, but when Cartagia was assassinated by Vir, it was said that he had no heirs. Judging by Dius' age in 2271, I'd say he was born before his father was killed, so his existence would have been known about. Perhaps he was illegitimate at the time of his birth, but if so, why would he be next in line for the Centauri throne years later?
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Old April 28th 12, 21:01   #2
Bab5nutz
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Re: Dius Vintari

Okay, is somewhat OT, but there have been times in Earth history, where being illgitimate didn't necessarily mean you were out of the running to inherit a throne, particularly if there was a lack of legitimate heirs left.

Henry Tudor, had ancestry of dubious legitimacy. On his mother's side, he was descended from John, Duke of Lancaster and his mistress, Katherine Swynford. The offspring of this relationship were legitmized by Richard II, but with the proviso that there were barred from succession to the throne. And on his father's side? Well, Henry's grandmother had been Catherine of Valois, a French princess who had been married to Henry V, and mother of Henry VI. After her husband's death, Catherine had become involved with a Welsh squire, Owain Tudor. They had at least two children, Edmund and Jasper. Whether or not, Owain and Catherine ever married is not clear. But, their half brother, Henry VI. recognised them, conferring upon them lands and titles. And in Edmund's case, a wife, 12 year old Margaret Beaufort, a descendant of John Duke of Lancaster and Katherine Swynford. The result of this marriage was Henry.

Now, a couple of generations before, one of John of Lancaster's legitimate sons, Bolingbroke, had siezed power from Richard II. Richard died in prison, probably murdered, soon after, and left no heirs. There were people in England with a better claim to the throne than Bolingbroke. But, as he was a more competent king than Richard II, he was more or less accepted by the establishment. He became Henry IV, and his son, Henry V, the warrior king who led the English to victory against the French at Agincourt. He married Catherine of Valois, and they had a son, yet another Henry. Unfortunately, Henry V, died when his son was only nine months old, leaving him with some very big boots to fill.

Worse still, Henry VI, suffered from severe mental illness for much of his life. He would go into a catatonic, zombie-like state for months on end. The first and most severe bout occurred during his wife's pregnancy, and lasted for well over a year. He was surrounded by men who squabbled over how the kingdom should be run, and just who should run it. And when his wife, Margaret of Anjou insisted on having a hand in running the kingdom, things really went to hell.

It was at this point that people remembered that there were people in England who had a better claim to the throne than Henry, and the sorry mess known as the Wars of the Roses started. Long story short, Henry VI was dethroned by the Yorkist who became Edward IV; Margaret of Anjou and their son were forced into exile, and Henry spent several years in the Tower. A number of years later, Henry's supporters tried to take back the English throne. They lost out. Henry's son died in battle, Margaret of Anjou was captured by the Yorkists. Henry would die in the Tower, probably murdered. There ended the legimate line of Lancastrian kings.

But, young Henry Tudor was Henry VI's nephew, and could claim descent from John, Duke of Lancaster. He would grow up in exile, and supported by the Lancastrian faction attempt to twice take the throne. The first time, he failed. The second time, thanks to some powerful nobility changing sides at the last minute, he claimed the throne at Redmore Plain, otherwise known as Bosworth Field. He would become Henry VII, the father of Henry VIII, grandmother of Edward VI, Mary I and Elizabeth I.

Hope you can follow all this. The whole Wars of the Roses business is very complicated, and I have simplified it a lot. But that was how Henry Tudor, who had illgetimate ancestors ended up as king of England.

I should add that Henry VII and his son Henry VIII had no qualms about getting rid of any remaining Yorkist heirs. One was a nephew of Yorkist king Edward IV who was held in the Tower from the time he was 10, until the time of his execution when he was 24. Another was an illgitimate son of Richard III, who was executed.

Last edited by Bab5nutz; April 28th 12 at 21:12.
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Old April 30th 12, 14:55   #3
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Re: Dius Vintari

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Originally Posted by Dagon View Post
There seems to be a bit of a contradiction with this character. In Voices in the Dark, he is specifically stated to be the son of Emperor Cartagia, but when Cartagia was assassinated by Vir, it was said that he had no heirs. Judging by Dius' age in 2271, I'd say he was born before his father was killed, so his existence would have been known about. Perhaps he was illegitimate at the time of his birth, but if so, why would he be next in line for the Centauri throne years later?
Lots of possibilities:
1. Cartagia didn't know one of his "Dress Up" games led to a child
2. Cartagia diavowed his son, because he was such a meglomaniac he didn't want the competition
3. The Council who decided who would rule next "conveniently forgot" Cartagia's son because they didn't want another freak on the throne (who obviously wouldn't be old enough to make the claim for the throne at the time of Cartagia's death, anyways)

Once the boy was old enough, he, or some faction may have resubmitted his claim and it was accepted.

I'm sure there are lots of other permutations that can be brought up.
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Old May 1st 12, 12:38   #4
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Re: Dius Vintari

Who would have been able to get Cartagia's illegitimate son in line for the throne? To be honest, I can't think of anyone willing. And I can't see Emperor Londo endorsing such a thing.
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Old May 1st 12, 14:59   #5
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Re: Dius Vintari

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Who would have been able to get Cartagia's illegitimate son in line for the throne? To be honest, I can't think of anyone willing. And I can't see Emperor Londo endorsing such a thing.
The Centauri are sneaky and Devious, anyone who wanted to try and wrestle power away from the sitting Emperor could form an Alliance of Ministers to push someone else to the forefront they believe they can control. Was Londo still around at this time? (I haven't watched this one since I first got the disk)
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Old May 4th 12, 21:59   #6
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Re: Dius Vintari

Londo died without any children, so other claimants become possible.

It is quite possible that one of Cartagia's girlfriends (or concubines) fled the palace when she got pregnant.
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Old May 5th 12, 00:36   #7
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Re: Dius Vintari

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Londo died without any children, so other claimants become possible.

It is quite possible that one of Cartagia's girlfriends (or concubines) fled the palace when she got pregnant.
Well, we know who picked up the crown after Londo died from the Series. And we also have the Prophecy
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Old May 12th 12, 09:43   #8
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Re: Dius Vintari

[QUOTE=Sindatur;396565]
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Originally Posted by Dagon View Post
Was Londo still around at this time? (I haven't watched this one since I first got the disk)
He still would have been alive in 2271. The "time flash" Sheridan experiences in "War Without End" (which marks the time of Londo's death) is said to occur "17 years later" (I can't remember if it's future-Delenn who told him this, but I remember this number)--hence 2277 or 8, with Sheridan dying around 2280 or 81 (~20 years after "Z'ha'dum"). So David, concieved sometime in season 5 (2262), would have been 8 or 9 in 2271. Vintari was obviously older than that, a teenager, so might have been more a "big brother" figure than a peer to David.

But remember that Londo really didn't have a lot of say in things even as Emperor--underhanded maneuverings for succession could occur even under the nose of an emperor with supposedly full capacities (like Turhan), but Londo with his keeper was no more really than a useful figurehead and Drakh puppet. We see especially in the Centauri Trilogy that he was often "out of the loop" and certainly wasn't even the most powerful Centauri on Centauri Prime. While Vir succeeded him, we don't know how long or effective his reign was, and he was hardly the type to get embroiled in intrigue (like he would probably have to in promoting a favored successor--and he might have even found Vintari to be a preferred successor, having some qualities he favored) even if he could. So who knows?

(I would actually be quite interested in a sequel to the Centauri Trilogy covering Vir's reign. His character does develop significant strength and courage in the trilogy, but still... picturing him as Emperor is hard to do, so his reign might have been an "interesting" time.)

Plus, he might have been Cartagia's son, but his father probably didn't live long enough to really influence the boy's values, if he even knew him at all. And remember that being Cartagia's son, he was Turhan's great-nephew (or whatever the term is), and that might have meant something too--overall that House might have been a particularly venerable one in Centauri history, in spite of the last nutcase it brought to the throne. Or perhaps after the reign of Vir the war drums would start beating again (these things seem to come in cycles), and the politics that get Vintari on the throne are similar to those that got Cartagia there (even down to similar plotting perhaps)....

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