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Old April 16th 11, 10:08   #11
C.L.U.
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

IIRC there were some rumors about the existence of alien life in Firefly, which could have been foreshadowing their arrival later in the show. Anyway, I didn't mind that there were only humans in the galaxy. I liked the concept and would have liked to see full five seasons of the show.
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Old April 16th 11, 17:21   #12
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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IIRC there were some rumors about the existence of alien life in Firefly, which could have been foreshadowing their arrival later in the show. Anyway, I didn't mind that there were only humans in the galaxy. I liked the concept and would have liked to see full five seasons of the show.
Yeah, me too! I feel cheated.

There were rumors of alien life, alien conspiracies, alien kidnappings, etc, just like there are in our world, but just like in our world they're paranoid delusions. When we actually *see* an alleged Alien corpse on display, Simon immediately identifies it as a fetal pig.

Basically, the impression I got was that idiocy was a universal constant: people in the 'Verse believed in spooky aliens, ghosts, magic powers, weren't maybe the most educated of folks, etc.
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Old April 17th 11, 15:16   #13
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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I do not mean to imply that Crusade *WAS* a ripoff of Trek, simply that it wasn't the watershed that B5 was, and that it felt rather derivative. Ship-based planet-of-the-week show, most of the crew were ciphers, bland dentist office sets, ridiculous uniforms, it felt like they were trying to un-do a lot of what B5 had done. I have no doubt that it would have gotten better, but: while it was on, it just never grabbed me.
Republibot, I didn't have quite as negative a reaction to Crusade as you did, but I agree that it wasn't the show that B5 was. And it's not because we only got (barely) one season; I'm one of those strange types who actually liked B5 in its first season. Much as I love Gary Cole (and now I'll be hearing "Office Space" lines in my head all day!), the show just didn't grab me like B5 did.
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Old April 17th 11, 21:58   #14
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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Republibot, I didn't have quite as negative a reaction to Crusade as you did, but I agree that it wasn't the show that B5 was. And it's not because we only got (barely) one season; I'm one of those strange types who actually liked B5 in its first season. Much as I love Gary Cole (and now I'll be hearing "Office Space" lines in my head all day!), the show just didn't grab me like B5 did.
Hey, nice to meet ya'.

Have I made it seem like I had a negative reaction to it? 'Cuz that's not what I was going for. My impression of the show is pretty much like you just stated: It's not as good. That doesn't mean it's bad, or that I danced around all giddy-like when it got canned. I was actually upset that I'd never get to find out where it was going. It's just - as you said - not the show B5 was. And it was kinda' derivative, in that there were a kerjillion ship-based shows, but B5 was really the first Station-based show.

[time passes. rereading comments]

Yeah, it does look kinda' negative, what I wrote. Perhaps it's just sort of being put on the spot with the whole Firefly/Crusade thing.

I completely adored the 1st season of B5 when it aired. I still don't hate it, I still think it's better than season 5, but it doesn't hold up for me like the others. I think that might just be that since I did adore the eps when they were new, I've seen 'em all waaaaaaaay too many times. It's like Star Trek:TOS - I don't hate the show, I just can't watch it anymore, I've seen it too much. <G>
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Old April 18th 11, 01:37   #15
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

I liked B5 from the very first episode I saw, S3E22 "Shadow Dancing." When I first saw Crusade (on TNT), it was after I'd seen all of B5 and the movies through "A Call to Arms," and I didn't like Crusade as much as B5. HOWEVER, upon subsequent viewings, I liked Crusade more and more. In my book, Crusade is not as good as B5 (my all-time favorite TV show), but it's close and the familial resemblance is definitely there.

If I could have one TV show to have restarted, Crusade would be it. If I could have two, I'd add Brimstone.
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Old April 18th 11, 17:51   #16
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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Hey, nice to meet ya'.
I completely agree with most of what you say. I just had to backquote this to say: sob! Am I really that unknown in these parts now? Sigh, guess I've been away too long... Well, with the moderated newsgroup currently non-functioning, this place, jmsnews.com, and the Facebook pages have been GODSENDS. I really need my B5 fan-friends fix from time to time!

Amy (p.s. - come see my thread in the "General off-topic discussion" area, called "B5 fan + B5 script writer = WIN!," to help me win a speaking role in the 10th anniversary audio book of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods"!)
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Old April 24th 11, 19:02   #17
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

If one is to compare Crusade to B5, it is really unfare to compare 5 years of B5 to 13 episodes of Crusade.

What if B5 had been cancelled after 13 episodes? None of the things I now love about B5 was not present then. The bad guy turning slowly into a hero during 100+ episodes. Seing things hinted at in erly episodes play out much much later. The shadow war, Sheridan, the forming of ISA. Etc.

In my opinion Crusade was excellent, but it suffered from being restarted after the 5 first episodes were filmed, and the change of uniforms. When it was restarted JMS was told that the first 5 episodes recorded would be scrapped. He had to compensate for that. When those episodes was shown anyway it ended with a lot of things being unlogical. People meeting for the first time twice. Things being used before it was invented, and so on. Things could have been fixed if all 13 episodes had been reedited, with some scenes moved from one episode to another.

Then the series was shown on tv out of order. The dvd box has the episodes out of order. The JMS-order in not any better. The best order is this:

01 War Zone - january, teep clue 1
02 The Long Road - feb or mars
06 Ruling from the Tomb - Lochley 1
08 Appearances and Other Deceits - gets grey uniforms
09 Racing the Night - Grey uniforms 1 (of 5), apocalypse box 1
11 The Needs of Earth - Cerberus 1
10 The Memory of War - virus 1, box 2
12 Visitors from down the Street - (ignore date), teep clue 2
13 Each Night I Dream of Home - Lochley 2, virus 2
Grey uniforms destroyed in a laundry room "accident" in the unfilmed script "To The End of the Earth".
03 The Well of Forever - teep clue 3, Isabelle 1
05 Patterns of the Soul - virus 3
04 Path of Sorrows - Isabelle 2, box 3 (how Gideon got it)
07 Rules of the Game - late (much is revelead), Lochley 3, Max watch last

This order makes most things play out in a logical manner, and things hinted at happens in a later episodes than the hint appear in, and the suspence is better if the big "revelation" episodes comes at the end.
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Old April 25th 11, 11:53   #18
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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Originally Posted by Tor View Post
If one is to compare Crusade to B5, it is really unfare to compare 5 years of B5 to 13 episodes of Crusade.

What if B5 had been cancelled after 13 episodes? None of the things I now love about B5 was not present then. The bad guy turning slowly into a hero during 100+ episodes. Seing things hinted at in erly episodes play out much much later. The shadow war, Sheridan, the forming of ISA. Etc.
Is it fair to compare the first 13 of Crusade to the 1st 13 of B5?

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In my opinion Crusade was excellent, but it suffered from being restarted after the 5 first episodes were filmed, and the change of uniforms. When it was restarted JMS was told that the first 5 episodes recorded would be scrapped. He had to compensate for that. When those episodes was shown anyway it ended with a lot of things being unlogical. People meeting for the first time twice. Things being used before it was invented, and so on. Things could have been fixed if all 13 episodes had been reedited, with some scenes moved from one episode to another.

Then the series was shown on tv out of order. The dvd box has the episodes out of order. The JMS-order in not any better. The best order is this:

01 War Zone - january, teep clue 1
02 The Long Road - feb or mars
06 Ruling from the Tomb - Lochley 1
08 Appearances and Other Deceits - gets grey uniforms
09 Racing the Night - Grey uniforms 1 (of 5), apocalypse box 1
11 The Needs of Earth - Cerberus 1
10 The Memory of War - virus 1, box 2
12 Visitors from down the Street - (ignore date), teep clue 2
13 Each Night I Dream of Home - Lochley 2, virus 2
Grey uniforms destroyed in a laundry room "accident" in the unfilmed script "To The End of the Earth".
03 The Well of Forever - teep clue 3, Isabelle 1
05 Patterns of the Soul - virus 3
04 Path of Sorrows - Isabelle 2, box 3 (how Gideon got it)
07 Rules of the Game - late (much is revelead), Lochley 3, Max watch last

This order makes most things play out in a logical manner, and things hinted at happens in a later episodes than the hint appear in, and the suspence is better if the big "revelation" episodes comes at the end.
I worked out my own order a while back, I'll have to look it up again. Similar to yours, and I agree both the broadcast and "Official" orders don't work.
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Old April 25th 11, 22:37   #19
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

I spent ages some time ago deciding on `my` order for Crusade as well. I find that my first 9 eps are the same as Tor's but in a slightly different order and my final 4 are (therefore) also the same, but also in a slightly different order. And I also place War Zone first, Rules of the Game last, the 3 Lochley meetings in `chronological` (as I see it) order and the 4 eps Appearances and Other Deceits, Racing the Night, The Needs of Earth and The Memory of War consecutively.
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Old April 26th 11, 13:03   #20
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Re: Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

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I spent ages some time ago deciding on `my` order for Crusade as well. I find that my first 9 eps are the same as Tor's but in a slightly different order and my final 4 are (therefore) also the same, but also in a slightly different order. And I also place War Zone first, Rules of the Game last, the 3 Lochley meetings in `chronological` (as I see it) order and the 4 eps Appearances and Other Deceits, Racing the Night, The Needs of Earth and The Memory of War consecutively.
Looked it up. My order is

0- "A Call To Arms" (The movie)
1- War Zone (Which barely fits continuity at all)
2- Appearances and other deceits (Where they get the bellboy uniforms)
3-Racing the night (Intended to be the 1st episode)
4-The Memory of War
5-The Needs of Earth
6-Visitors from Down the Street (The X-files parody)
7-Each Night I dream of home (The Lochley/Steven Franklin episode)
8-The Long Road (Galen vs. The Equalizer)
9-Patterns of the Soul
10-The Path of Sorrow (The Galen/Gideon/Matheson flashback episode)
11-Ruling from the Tomb (Lochley on mars/religious death cult episode)
12- The Well of Forever
13- The Rules of the Game (3rd Lochley episode, where the Excalibur docks at B5)

"Each Night" just feels like the first Lochley ep to me, as she's out of her familiar territory, "Tomb" has Lochley and Gideon on more-or-less equal footing in unfamiliar surroundings, and "Game" reverses the first Lochley ep, with Gideon in unfamiiar surroundings, and Lochley on her home turf. There's a bit of a progression there.

It seems likely that Lochley and Gideon would have met - albeit briefly and probably formally - when he was on the station prior to the start of War Games. High profile meeting and all, and she was a hands-on CO

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