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View Poll Results: Lochley - Good or Bad???
Great Character 9 21.43%
She was ok 16 38.10%
Hell no, i miss Ivanova 17 40.48%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 4th 07, 13:33   #21
GKarsEye
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Why does it have to be "if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend" ? Ivanova/CC didn't do that, looked softer (less stern) and yet fit the role of a commanding officer. Lochley fit better when she began to loosen up and act like a human being in Crusade.
I don't know- frankly I'm confused by the argument. At one point people were saying that she should play "the sexy girlfriend," which really is what one says about a light-weight actress who is pretty but not talented, like a model with acting aspirations. Now you're saying the opposite- that she's too sever and, what is silly to me, that she's too fit to be a military commander. I really don't get that. Why can't someone who looks like she can be a fitness instructor (and of course Scoggins did make exercise videos) be athletic?

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Lochley fit better when she began to loosen up and act like a human being in Crusade.
So she got better when she had more time and more diverse situations to develop her character. Yes, exactly.

And, by the way, she did not play "the sexy girlfriend" on Crusade. She was the commander of a space station and budding ally of the Excalibur who happened to be having a tryst with its captain.

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I don't think Scoggins could deliver the comedic lines as well as CC if Scoggins lived to be a hundred.
Well I don't think CC delivered them so well, but I also don't think those lines were that comedic. I've always found JMS' comedy to be very hit and miss, and sometimes CC could be a bit cartoonish in her reactions and delivery. Again, final blame/credit should go to the directors and writers, but CC had quite a few cringe moments.
Scoggins, on the other hand, rarely if ever even got comedic lines. There just wasn't time.
Come to think of it the only time I remember her getting some sort of diverse dialogue is River of Souls, but I don't like that movie so I don't remember it well.

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It has to do with Tracy being able to pull off looks and scenes that are not of her being a soldier. I'm saying that Ivanova/CC was more versatile. Tracy was almost a one note player. Being able to pull off more looks and scenes makes for a more well rounded character.
But did she even have the opportunity? When was she even out of uniform?
Oh, I know- Day of the Dead. That was the one episode where we really got to explore Lochley. If you think she sucked in that episode, then that would explain your opinion. Frankly I thought she did a fine job, and better than CC in her ultra-dramatic moments. The Lochley parts were the only interesting parts of Day of the Dead (and the comic relief of G'Kar of course).

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I think that's just JMS's characters talking the way JMS talks.
Of course. The "by you" thing, and the whole rhythm, is derived from growing up around Russian-Jewish family. I know because I, like JMS, have done that, and it's why he made Ivanova Russian-Jewish. He also makes various characters say similar things throughout the series. It's simply a consequence of the same dude writing everything, and it gives the show a unique coherence.

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do people really find Tracy Scoggins beautiful?
Yep
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Old September 4th 07, 14:47   #22
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

I found Lochley perfectly believable as a person with military authority. Which is probably part of why I couldn't make myself love her much - it's not like military authority people are supposed to be instantly likable.

I found her a lot more enjoyable in Crusade, when her character went a lot further beyond being a random tough cookie doing Ivanova's job, so yes, I do think part of the dislike was just bad timing. (and I LOVED Tracy Scoggins as a Cardassian on Deep Space Nine, so it's not really an actor-related thing) And, also, the stories she has been given have sucked - and still do.

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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Of course. The "by you" thing, and the whole rhythm, is derived from growing up around Russian-Jewish family. I know because I, like JMS, have done that, and it's why he made Ivanova Russian-Jewish. He also makes various characters say similar things throughout the series. It's simply a consequence of the same dude writing everything, and it gives the show a unique coherence.
Which leads me to the question .. did you "buy" Ivanova? I never really bought Ivanova as a Russian, mostly because she sounded so much more like an expat to me than a Russian. Possibly because I've encountered strange Russians in my life, but who knows.

Constant open pessimism is certainly not something I'd associate with Russians that actually still have ties with Russia. When I've chatted with Russians from Russia, I usually couldn't get a word in sideways between all the praise of the good Russia has done for the world, how beautiful Russian cities are, how hot Russian women are, how much better Russian booze is than any other booze in the world, et cetera. Yeah, pessimism is an integral part of the Russian mind set - even more so for Jews in Russia, I would think. Talking about it isn't though - not till you've gone abroad where people won't slam you for it, at least.

Mind you, who knows what Russia will be like in the 23rd century. But JMS does seem to consider Ivanova a believable contemporary Russian, with all the clichees in place. I don't really buy it.

Last edited by Chilli; September 4th 07 at 14:50.
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Old September 4th 07, 16:12   #23
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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But JMS does seem to consider Ivanova a believable contemporary Russian, with all the clichees in place. I don't really buy it.
Well, she's a Russian as JMS, with his own viewpoint as an American-born descendant of Russians, sees it.

At first they tried a little too hard with her constantly telling us she's Russian and hints at a poor accent, but that went away quickly and it was fine.
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Old September 4th 07, 16:38   #24
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

Yeah, it was mostly the first season that was on my mind. I'm currently going through my DVDs properly for the first time, at a killer speed - I only recently left season 1.
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Old September 5th 07, 00:03   #25
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by raw_bean View Post
I think that's just JMS's characters talking the way JMS talks.
Yeah, you're probably right. It's just that when I heard her say that line, I immediately thought of Ivanova, like it's something that she would say.

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As for people having 'problems taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure', do people really find Tracy Scoggins beautiful? I know it's in the eye of the beholder and all, but to put it politely I really wouldn't describe her looks that way.
I wouldn't. Striking (noticeable, conspicuous), yes, but not beautiful. To me, CC was beautiful from certain angles (e.g. the close-up of her face when in the Great Machine, when in the little black dress in The War Prayer and when she showed up in C&C after getting back into uniform in the same episode).

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And I'm with KoshN, she has a flat, monotonic voice and very little acting range. I never found her very convincing in much of anything (possible exception of Day of the Dead).
I thought she was good in The New Adventures of Superman, and in The River of Souls (especially the love bat scene with the lawyer).


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It's a shame, because she seems like such a nice person and a huge B5 fan and supporter, and I don't feel at all good about ragging on her,
EXACTLY! I feel the very same way about it. She gets MAJOR points from me for being as supportive of B5 as she is, a real team player, but I just don't think she's Lead material. Supporting yes, but not Lead. A little Tracy goes a long way.



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but I think CC is a far better actress...
...but not necessarily a great actress. In B5 as Ivanova, I thought she was great. In Highlander, I thought she was a flub. In Hexed, she was fun.



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Originally Posted by raw_bean View Post
(and much more beautiful),
Was. Don't know about now, 'cause I haven't seen CC since her appearance on the Season 2 DVD set (which looked like it was done right after she'd had a face lift ).


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Originally Posted by raw_bean View Post
...and Ivanova a far better character.
No doubt about it!!!
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Old September 5th 07, 02:44   #26
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
I don't know- frankly I'm confused by the argument. At one point people were saying that she should play "the sexy girlfriend," which really is what one says about a light-weight actress who is pretty but not talented, like a model with acting aspirations. Now you're saying the opposite- that she's too sever and, what is silly to me, that she's too fit to be a military commander. I really don't get that. Why can't someone who looks like she can be a fitness instructor (and of course Scoggins did make exercise videos) be athletic?
Argh, are you binary?! It doesn't have to be 1 or 0, all or nothing. Loosening up doesn't mean the actress *has* to play a role within the acting range of a "model with acting aspirations" (i.e. ultra-beginner and/or little or no talent)

Tracy's look is severe (Some, not me, have called her Skeletor.). She has overpowering features and is a magnet for attention in every scene, kind of like having a habanero pepper in your morning corn flakes. Lochley's attitude was severe. Once she mellowed, she was better, but her looks are still overpowering. She needs toned down, casualized, softened in look (via clothes and makeup), made to look less like a tomboy who grew boobs and has a nice caboose.




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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
And, by the way, she did not play "the sexy girlfriend" on Crusade. She was the commander of a space station and budding ally of the Excalibur who happened to be having a tryst with its captain.
Maybe not sexy girlfriend, but definitely a more than one dimensional human being, because of the flirting and a sense of humor showing up.



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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Well I don't think CC delivered them so well, but I also don't think those lines were that comedic.

Ivanova moments that made me laugh, smile, snicker or chuckle:

"If I can't make it, you'll have to blow up that ship before it hits."
"Why not destroy it now?"
"First contact protocol, Lieutenant Commander. Only when conditions present a clear and present danger. If this is a new technology, a new race, I want that ship intact."
"This isn't a clear and present danger? I must read the rulebook again."
-- Sinclair and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Soul Hunter"


"You're a vicious man."
"I'm Head of Security. It's in the job description."
-- Ivanova and Garibaldi in Babylon 5:"The War Prayer"


I demand you open a channel to Earth at once."
"I'm a Lieutenant Commander in Earth Force, Major. I don't take demands. If you will request, I will consider it."
"Very well, then. I request that you open a channel to Earthdome."
"Request denied. Have a nice day."
-- Major Kemmer and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Survivors"


"I'm ready to go back on duty, sir."
"Good, I've had my fill of double shifts."
"Perhaps we'll remember that the next time Ms. Sakai visits the station."
-- Ivanova and Sinclair in Babylon 5:"TKO"

[Sinclair knocks out Colonel Ben Zayn.]
"I assume the investigation is concluded."
-- Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Eyes"

"And just one more thing. On your trip back I'd like you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra: 'Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out.' Babylon Control out. .. Civilians! [Looks up] I was just kidding about the God part -- no offense."
-- Ivanova in Babylon 5:"A Voice in the Wilderness #1"


[Sinclair throws a rock to a laser defense system]
"Well, that'll cut down on tourism."
-- Ivanova to Sinclair in Babylon 5:"A Voice in the Wilderness #1"

"Next! We start by removing your clothes."
"Not without dinner and flowers."
-- Dr. Franklin and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"The Quality of Mercy"

"You will have to wear a cast. And it's gonna hurt."
"Swell. Ouch."
"I can give you something for the pain."
"Oh, great, now you can give me something for the pain. Where were you when I was going through puberty?"
-- Franklin and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"The Geometry of Shadows"

"I have absolute trust in your abilities, Commander."
"Well, that's a hell of a thing to tell someone. Hah! No pressure, fine. Fine."
-- Sheridan and Cmdr Ivanova in Babylon 5:"The Geometry of Shadows"


If everything is satisfactory, Doctor, I'll be returning to my duties."
"Just one last thing, Commander. I worked out this food plan for you."
"Are you telling me to go on a diet? I'll have you know I don't have an ounce of fat in my body. I exercise vigorously once a day despite my injury, and--"
"When you do eat, you don't eat enough of the right things. You have deficiencies in calsium, iron and several other minerals. And it's hampering your recovery. Now, I recommend iron supplements, and an increased diet.. food plan, to replenish you system."
"I'll gain weight!"
"Well, briefly, yes."
"Figures. All my life I've fought against imperialism. Now, suddenly I am the expanding Russian frontier."
"But with very nice borders."
-- Ivanova and Franklin in Babylon 5:"A Distant Star"

"Item two. You snore."
"No, I don't."
"Yes, you do."
"No, I don't."
"Captain, either you snore or last night we had a hell of a breach in the hull."
-- Ivanova and Sheridan in Babylon 5:"A Race Through Dark Places"


No traffic, no complaints, no noise. Traders, troublemakers, and ambassadors, all tugged snuggly in their little beds. I love this time of night."
"There is no night in deep space. And time is a meaningless concept when you stop to think about it."
-- Ivanova and Corwin in Babylon 5:"GROPOS"


"I don't want to get killed because of a typo, it would be embarrassing."
-- Ivanova in Babylon 5:"A Day in the Strife"


"I believe it."
"If Entil'Zha believes it, I believe it."
"I'll be in the car."
-- Sinclair, Marcus & Ivanova in Babylon 5:"War Without End #1"





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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
I've always found JMS' comedy to be very hit and miss,
For me, she was 95% hit.



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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
and sometimes CC could be a bit cartoonish in her reactions and delivery.
That was part of her charm. Sure, she was goofy, sometimes, but it was endearing.


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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Again, final blame/credit should go to the directors and writers, but CC had quite a few cringe moments.
The only one I can remember was her sex dance for the Lumati. However, her reaction when she got the gift was great. She could convey a lot with just a look, like when she dreamt she showed up for work in C&C naked.



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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Scoggins, on the other hand, rarely if ever even got comedic lines. There just wasn't time.
Lochley got some wry comedic scenes in Crusade, and in the love bat scene with the lawyer in the The River of Souls.


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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
But did she even have the opportunity? When was she even out of uniform?
Oh, I know- Day of the Dead. That was the one episode where we really got to explore Lochley. If you think she sucked in that episode, then that would explain your opinion.
I thought Lochley was OK in Day of the Dead.


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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Frankly I thought she did a fine job, and better than CC in her ultra-dramatic moments. The Lochley parts were the only interesting parts of Day of the Dead (and the comic relief of G'Kar of course).
The comic relief of G'Kar ?

CC was great in "Z'ha'dum" when she sensed that Sheridan was dead.




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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
He also makes various characters say similar things throughout the series. It's simply a consequence of the same dude writing everything, and it gives the show a unique coherence.
To me, that makes it seem artificial, when the characters begin to speak with esentially the same voice. OTOH, you could also say that characters who are around each other a lot may pick up each others speech patterns a bit, but I still think it feels artificial. e.g. If Eilerson or Galen in Crusade started talking like that, wouldn't it seem out of place to you?
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Last edited by KoshN; September 5th 07 at 03:29.
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Old September 5th 07, 06:11   #27
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

Lochley's likeable enough, but she's not Ivanova. Ivanova kicked butt! I however didn't whine and cry when she was gone. I moved on with my life and accepted Lochley as her replacement.
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Old September 5th 07, 13:50   #28
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
97Of course. The "by you" thing, and the whole rhythm, is derived from growing up around Russian-Jewish family. I know because I, like JMS, have done that, and it's why he made Ivanova Russian-Jewish. He also makes various characters say similar things throughout the series. It's simply a consequence of the same dude writing everything, and it gives the show a unique coherence.
It's also, more simply, an eastern European (often Jewish) immigrant thing to say. All of my older relatives talk like that, and only one of four branches of the family are Russian (the others are Polish, Hungarian, and Austrian). Go into any good deli in downtown New York and you'll hear "by you" all over the place.

And, people who live in places where there's a large population like that often pick up the patterns of speech themselves, even if they're not eastern European immigrants or Jewish. Everybody in the music industry in New York talks like that, says "by you," and "shmooze," "tschotchkes," etc. etc.

One more thought about the two actresses: I never had a problem with Scoggins, so I'm always amazed to see the strong feelings about her on either side of the argument. As for Claudia, I think she's an okay actress -- no better or worse than Tracy -- but one thing I got from Claudia that I didn't get from Tracy is that it seemed to me that more of Claudia 'leaked out' into Ivanova. Particularly in scenes where she was being light, or "goofy" (to quote Mac). It would often seem to me like it was Claudia we were seeing being goofy, rather than Ivanova. And that's not good, whether it's a consequence of the acting, the writing, or the directing.

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Old September 5th 07, 22:46   #29
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

I think that had lochley been given more storylines in Season 5 there wouldnt be such a hostile sentiment towards her character. In my opinion she was a good character who deserved more screen time.
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Old September 6th 07, 11:01   #30
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

For my part at least, that wouldn't have been the case. I'm glad there's as little of her as there is.
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