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View Poll Results: Lochley - Good or Bad???
Great Character 9 21.43%
She was ok 16 38.10%
Hell no, i miss Ivanova 17 40.48%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 3rd 07, 18:39   #11
Jade Jaguar
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow View Post
I agree. Tracy can plan the sexy girlfriend, which was her role in Crusade. The ruthless military commander is not.
Hmm... Well, to me, she always seemed cold and distant, which is why I didn't like her, those being qualities of someone ruthless...
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Old September 3rd 07, 19:37   #12
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

Maybe you guys just have a problem taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure. I could even give the argument credibility if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend (i.e., the Aerosmith video/Clueless chick as Batgirl- oh man that still makes me giggle).

But Scoggins is lean, muscular and has the wiry athleticism that is completely believable as a soldier. She also looks the right age, and I've never seen act the cupy-doll role. Basically, she could kick any of our asses.

The reason I'd rather have had Ivanova is because of what would've happened with the story had she stayed. I think by this point the B5 knows what that would've been, and it would've made the first half of season 5 as awesome as season 3-4, instead of the flat loss of potential we got stuck with.

The fact is, you can't introduce a new major character in the last season of a series and expect it to have serious impact. But I think Scoggins would have made a killer Ivanova and Lochley was as believable as any other female authority figure in the show.

I know I've smashed Claudi Christian's acting before, but I recently watched Freaks and Geeks and she's just fine as the troubled mother of one of the geeks. Maybe she was just directed poorly. We know that the writing and directing team gave the actors a lot of leeway, but maybe CC just needed more guidance.
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Old September 3rd 07, 22:11   #13
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow View Post
I agree. Tracy can plan the sexy girlfriend,
That's another role she can play well.


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Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow View Post
...which was her role in Crusade.
Well.....that was part of her role in Crusade, and probably why she fit better in Crusade.


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Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow View Post
The ruthless military commander is not.
Ruthless? C'mon, she isn't playing a Klingon. Apologies for using a Trek term in a B5 discussion, but I couldn't think of a suitably well known, one-dimensional B5 example.
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Old September 3rd 07, 22:20   #14
KoshN
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar View Post
Hmm... Well, to me, she always seemed cold and distant, which is why I didn't like her, those being qualities of someone ruthless...
No, that tenseness is Tracy overcompensating to be taken seriously as Lochley, and Lochley overcompensating to be taken seriously as the station commander.
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Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 3rd 07, 23:30   #15
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
Maybe you guys just have a problem taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure.
Then how is it that I can take Ivanova seriously as an authority figure? I also have no trouble taking the following women seriously as an authority figures.

Emily Procter as Calleigh Duquesne (CSI Miami)
Sasha Alexander as Caitlin "Kate" Todd [ 1-2 ] (NCIS)
Lauren Holly as NCIS Director Jenny Shepard [ 3- ] (NCIS)
Cote de Pablo as Ziva David [ 3- ] (NCIS)
Lola Glaudini as Elle Greenway [ eps 1-28 ] (Criminal Minds)
Paget Brewster as Emily Prentiss [ eps 31- ] (Criminal Minds)
A.J. Cook as Jennifer "JJ" Jareau (Criminal Minds)
Melina Kanakaredes as Det. Stella Bonasera (CSI-NY)
Anna Belknap as Det. Lindsay Monroe [ 2- ] (CSI-NY)
Marg Helgenberger as Catherine Willows (CSI)
Jorja Fox as Sara Sidel (CSI)
Louise Lombard as Det. Sofia Curtis (CSI)
Liz Vassey as Wendy Simms (CSI)
Jeri Ryan as Jessica Devlin (Shark)
Sophina Brown as Raina Troy (Shark)
Sarah Carter as Madeline Poe (Shark)



Quote:
Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
I could even give the argument credibility if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend.
Wait. Why does it have to be "if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend" ? Ivanova/CC didn't do that, looked softer (less stern) and yet fit the role of a commanding officer. Lochley fit better when she began to loosen up and act like a human being in Crusade.



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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
But Scoggins is lean, muscular and has the wiry athleticism that is completely believable as a soldier.
It's more believable as a fitness instructor or somebody who spends a great deal of time working out, and not much time doing anything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
The fact is, you can't introduce a new major character in the last season of a series and expect it to have serious impact.
True, plus we don't know how many actresses showed up to audition for the role of Lochley. Also, the short time that they had to do the casting must have made it a real problem (...a problem they shouldn't have had because CC shouldn't have bailed right before the last season was going to start shooting, with several scripts including her character already written.[1]).



Quote:
Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
But I think Scoggins would have made a killer Ivanova and Lochley was as believable as any other female authority figure in the show.
I HIGHLY doubt that. For one thing, I don't think Scoggins could deliver the comedic lines as well as CC if Scoggins lived to be a hundred.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
I know I've smashed Claudi Christian's acting before, but I recently watched Freaks and Geeks and she's just fine as the troubled mother of one of the geeks. Maybe she was just directed poorly. We know that the writing and directing team gave the actors a lot of leeway, but maybe CC just needed more guidance.
IMHO, CC was perfect as Ivanova after the first few episodes. Ivanova was quirky, comedic (wry sense of humor), serious, feminine, commanding, and caring. She could pull it off. I don't think Tracy could do that. She doesn't have as much range.

BTW, did you notice the blatent Ivanova line JMS gave Tracy in "Over Here" ?
Spoiler for Lochley's Ivanova line:
"So, uh, after all this time, this by you is Hello?"



[1] I feel the same way about Mandy Patinkin bailing on "Criminal Minds" right before the first episode of the new season was going to shoot (with several scripts including his character already written). It's not being a team player and it's not professional. It's discourteous to everybody involved with production of the show. I plan to avoid any show he's on in the future.
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."

Last edited by KoshN; September 4th 07 at 00:22.
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Old September 4th 07, 00:27   #16
Jan
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by KoshN View Post
It's more believable as a fitness instructor or somebody who spends a great deal of time working out, and not much time doing anything else.
You make it sound like Tracy/Lochley looks like some kind of body builder which couldn't be farther farther from the truth.

Quote:
True, plus we don't know how many actresses showed up to audition for the role of Lochley. Also, the short time that they had to do the casting must have made it a real problem (...a problem they shouldn't have had because CC shouldn't have bailed right before the last season was going to start shooting, with several scripts including her character already written.[1]).
First, finding actors to audition is never really difficult in LA. Second, there were no scripts at all completed, only some notes and script fragments. Third, from Script Book Volume 11:
Quote:
Strong parts for women as career soldiers, fighters, or officers are few and far between. As a result, the skill set needed to portray those characters is equally hard to find.

True to that assumption, we went through a lot of actors before Tracy
Scoggins entered our office and nailed the part in her first audition.
Quote:
BTW, did you notice the blatent Ivanova line JMS gave Tracy in "Over Here" ?
Nope. What do you mean? I really think that JMS quite writing for Ivanova several years ago.

Jan
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Old September 4th 07, 01:27   #17
KoshN
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
You make it sound like Tracy/Lochley looks like some kind of body builder which couldn't be farther farther from the truth.
Not that extreme, no (She hasn't lost her top, and fills out the lingerie quite well in "The River of Souls".), but Ivanova/CC certainly looks more feminine (e.g. in the little black dress, in "The War Prayer" ). T&A are not all that makes woman/girl look feminine. Lochley/Tracy looks more like an athlete who happens to be female.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
First, finding actors to audition is never really difficult in LA. Second, there were no scripts at all completed, only some notes and script fragments. Third, from Script Book Volume 11:
Quote:
Strong parts for women as career soldiers, fighters, or officers are few and far between. As a result, the skill set needed to portray those characters is equally hard to find.

True to that assumption, we went through a lot of actors before Tracy
Scoggins entered our office and nailed the part in her first audition.
Wonder who else auditioned? We'll never know, that's for sure.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Nope. What do you mean? I really think that JMS quite writing for Ivanova several years ago.
It's in the spoiler. Unhide it.
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Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."
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Old September 4th 07, 02:21   #18
Jan
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by KoshN View Post
Not that extreme, no (She hasn't lost her top, and fills out the lingerie quite well in "The River of Souls".), but Ivanova/CC certainly looks more feminine (e.g. in the little black dress, in "The War Prayer" ). T&A are not all that makes woman/girl look feminine. Lochley/Tracy looks more like an athlete who happens to be female.
Which would seem to be perfect for her role as a *soldier*, wouldn't it? It was that comment that you were originally replying to. What does femininity or lack thereof have to do with being a soldier, and therefore needing to be physically fit?

I'd invite you to compare Lochley in the first three episodes (No Compromises, A View from the Gallery and Learning Curve) to Ivanova's (Midnight on the Firing Line, Soul Hunter and Born to the Purple) and tell me which character loosened up more quickly.

Can you explain why that line should have belonged to Ivanova?

Jan
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Old September 4th 07, 03:37   #19
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Which would seem to be perfect for her role as a *soldier*, wouldn't it?
I guess, but Ivanova was fine as a soldier, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
It was that comment that you were originally replying to. What does femininity or lack thereof have to do with being a soldier, and therefore needing to be physically fit?
It has to do with Tracy being able to pull off looks and scenes that are not of her being a soldier. I'm saying that Ivanova/CC was more versatile. Tracy was almost a one note player. Being able to pull off more looks and scenes makes for a more well rounded character.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
I'd invite you to compare Lochley in the first three episodes (No Compromises, A View from the Gallery and Learning Curve) to Ivanova's (Midnight on the Firing Line, Soul Hunter and Born to the Purple) and tell me which character loosened up more quickly.
Naah, let's do the whole season.



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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Can you explain why that line should have belonged to Ivanova?
Oh come on, I can't believe you're asking that question. That's the way Ivanova spoke, but then again, so did Londo.

I think I'll vote for Marie Crane. .. I do not like Santiago. I always thought that a leader should have a strong chin. He has no chin and his vice-president has several. This, to me, is not a good combination."
-- Sinclair and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Midnight on the Firing Line"


"Ah, for a moment I was thinking women, drinking and debauchery. I forgot I was speaking to a Minbari. This, by you, is a good time, is it? What else?"
"You must tell someone a secret that you have never told anyone else before. And you must give away something that is of great value to you."
"Ah, how positively festive!"
-- Londo and Lennier in Babylon 5:"Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
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"Crusade" (1999) - "War Zone"
Max Eilerson: "The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years. Probably contains hundreds of patents that I could exploit and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."

Last edited by KoshN; September 4th 07 at 03:41.
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Old September 4th 07, 09:58   #20
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Re: Lochley - Good or Bad???

I think that's just JMS's characters talking the way JMS talks.

As for people having 'problems taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure', do people really find Tracy Scoggins beautiful? I know it's in the eye of the beholder and all, but to put it politely I really wouldn't describe her looks that way.

And I'm with KoshN, she has a flat, monotonic voice and very little acting range. I never found her very convincing in much of anything (possible exception of Day of the Dead). It's a shame, because she seems like such a nice person and a huge B5 fan and supporter, and I don't feel at all good about ragging on her, but I think CC is a far better actress (and much more beautiful), and Ivanova a far better character.
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