the stone that changes Delenn & Sinclair

I posted this at SciFi.com and never really got a satisfactory answer. Where did the stone that changed Delenn and Sinclair originate from?? Zatharas gave it to Delenn and Delenn gave it to Sinclair -- but Zatharas went back in time with Sinclair and presumably gave it to his kin to give to Delenn. So was the stone always there or did it actually come from somewhere?? **Getting headache, running off to take aspirin**

Zathras brought the three triluminaries with him from Epsilon 3 to the White Star before they entered the time rift in WWE Part I. All three went back in time with Zathras and Sinclair. Sinclair, as Valen, passed them on to the Minbari who kept them over the centuries. Delenn received the one she used to become half human from another Satai of the Grey Council.

So thanks to the oddities of temporal mechanics the same set of three triluminaries existed on Minbar (two after Delenn borrowed one) and Epsilon 3 during the main time period that Babylon 5 takes place in.

How the three triluminaries originaly ended up on Epsilon 3 I don't think has been stated. The Vorlons could have created them and put them there; however, I think the greater possibility is that Draal or another caretaker of the Great Machine forged them and gave them to Zathras to take into the past for Sinclair to use and give to the Minbari.

but if Zathras went back in time as well then the tri-luminary went back in time -- wouldn't that just make it keep going in a circle?? A time loop?? Just for that one tri-luminary??

then the tri-luminary went back in time -- wouldn't that just make it keep going in a circle?? A time loop?? Just for that one tri-luminary??

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There are three triluminaries, and Zathras took all three from Epsilon 3 with him back in time. Those three where then given by Valen to the Minbari. The Minbari kept all three. The Minbari still have them after the events of WWE. The confusion comes in understanding that the exact same three triluminaries can exist in two different places within the same time.

wouldn't that just make it keep going in a circle?? A time loop??

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I just drew myself a diagram to solidify my thoughts and it got me thinking about the two words you use.

It's not a circle, but it is a loop. If you think of the loop in a roller coaster, the coaster keeps going foward even though the track temporarily doubles back on itself. The path of the triluminaries through time is similar.

Where did the stone that changed Delenn and Sinclair originate from??

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It was never stated in the show, but I thought the center of the triluminary looked more like a computer chip than a stone.

Someone told me that it was supposed to be part of Sinclair's link (which would have gone back in time with him if he had continued as the main character of the show). Notice how they made sure to mention OVER and OVER again about how the links don't use adhesive, but are DNA coded to the wearer. The reason that it reacted to Sinclair is that it was coded to respond to his DNA. It reacted to Delenn because she is one of Sinclair/Valen's descendents and contained enough of his DNA to activate the chip. It also would have kept someone who was not "the One" from activating the Chrysalis device since the key component (triluminary) only worked for certain people.

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. Delenn says in one episode that the Grey Council scanned several human pilots with the triluminaries and every human they tested made the devices glow. I don't see how they could have also been descendents of Sinclair. Unless the triluminary reacts only to a particular gene that is common to all humans (and only humans).

It was never stated in the show, but I thought the center of the triluminary looked more like a computer chip than a stone.

Someone told me that it was supposed to be part of Sinclair's link (which would have gone back in time with him if he had continued as the main character of the show). Notice how they made sure to mention OVER and OVER again about how the links don't use adhesive, but are DNA coded to the wearer. The reason that it reacted to Sinclair is that it was coded to respond to his DNA. It reacted to Delenn because she is one of Sinclair/Valen's descendents and contained enough of his DNA to activate the chip. It also would have kept someone who was not "the One" from activating the Chrysalis device since the key component (triluminary) only worked for certain people.

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This is the answer I have heard before and it does make the most sense to me. That explains why it reacted to Sinclair when they were interrorgating him, and why it also reacted to a "decendent" of his.

It doesnt explain how all 3 were in Episilon 3 though. What MAY have happened was this:

1) You will note that Sinclair did not have his link with him in WWE --- he was an ambassador to Minbar at that point. He even commented when Sheridans link went off. His link may have been somewhere on Minbar. Remember from the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" Sinclair stayed in Valens old house while he was there with the Rangers.

2) Its possible that as time was drawing near, Minbari who were "in the know" took Sinclairs link while he was on Minbar working with the Rangers. Perhaps they simply took it, perhaps they replaced it with a look-alike so he wouldnt notice it was missing. He probably didnt USE it anymore anyway, maybe it was just a keep sake at that point so why would he notice it wasnt the same one.

3) The Minbari who may have taken it was instructed to do so by Draal and it was taken to Episilon 3 where they made 3 Trilumanaries from it.

4) A year later, in WWE, those 3 trilumanaries were sent back with B4 and Sinclair/Valen.

5) They were then kept with the Minbari as mentioned above over the next 1000 years.

One thing to note: While this seems confusing, as described above there are NOT more than 3 Trilumanaries (except for brief overlap period).

They arrive 1000 years in the past. There are just 3.
They are kept up until Sinclair goes to Minbar. Still 3.
Link taken to Episilon 3 and 3 are made. NOW there are 6.
The three that were made are now taken to the past in WWE. The 3 from 1000 years ago still are in the present.

Damn its like trying to figure out about 75% of the Trek plots.

Anyway, that is what makes the most sense to me. Anyone agree? I dont think its ever been outright stated what they were or how they were made, but this seems to fit so its probably as good an answer as can be made.

The triluminary does look like a bit of broken Earth technology, and I think that was JMS's original notion for the device. But after Sinclair left that idea no longer fit with the revised story, so it was quietly dropped like many other plot elements that disappeared for one reason or another during the course of the show. (Delenn's "magic" rings from the pilot, Bureau 13, Talia's mentor Abby, Kosh's VCR recording of Talia's thoughts, etc.)

I don't see how they could have also been descendents of Sinclair. Unless the triluminary reacts only to a particular gene that is common to all humans (and only humans).

You're closer to the truth on the second point. The fact is that genetically all Humans are nearly identical. It is only the tiniest fraction of our genes that differ from individual to individual. When Sinclair was transformed into what must have been 100% Minbari (because he bore children who were themselves fertile) a few pieces of (probably non-functional) Human DNA remained. (A certain amount of "junk DNA" with no apparent purpose is a feature of most Earth life, and there's no reason to think that it would be any different on Minbar.) This Human DNA would be detectable in Valen's distant descendants -- and in virtually any Human being pulled off the street (or out of a StarFury) at the time of the Battle of the Line. The Triluminary was not detecting Sinclair's DNA, it was detecting Human DNA. It just happens that the only Minbari who have Human DNA are all descendants of Sinclair.

Regards,

Joe

It just happens that the only Minbari who have Human DNA are all descendants of Sinclair.

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Well, them and any that starred in any films with Minbari in Mr. Eilerson's collect. ;-)

Snow White and the Seven Narns would put a new spin on the term, "gag reel".

-Tim

No, it would be Lyta and the Seven Teeps.

OK guys, either start talking about triluminaries or pick this up over in NC-17.

(Carefully censoring all the things he'd like to post about Lyta. And about Talia. And about Lyta and Talia. )

Regards,

Joe

You're closer to the truth on the second point. The fact is that genetically all Humans are nearly identical. It is only the tiniest fraction of our genes that differ from individual to individual. When Sinclair was transformed into what must have been 100% Minbari (because he bore children who were themselves fertile) a few pieces of (probably non-functional) Human DNA remained. (A certain amount of "junk DNA" with no apparent purpose is a feature of most Earth life, and there's no reason to think that it would be any different on Minbar.) This Human DNA would be detectable in Valen's distant descendants -- and in virtually any Human being pulled off the street (or out of a StarFury) at the time of the Battle of the Line. The Triluminary was not detecting Sinclair's DNA, it was detecting Human DNA. It just happens that the only Minbari who have Human DNA are all descendants of Sinclair.

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This does make some kind of sense but I need to throw a spanner into the works...

If all human pilots they tested reacted to the Triluminary, why are the Minbari convinced that it is Sinclair who has Valen's Soul and not any other of the humans they tested???

Perhaps we are all Valen?

If all human pilots they tested reacted to the Triluminary, why are the Minbari convinced that it is Sinclair who has Valen's Soul and not any other of the humans they tested???

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Maybe Sinclair made it glow brighter.

I remember Delenn saying that it was programmed for his DNA.

If all human pilots they tested reacted to the Triluminary, why are the Minbari convinced that it is Sinclair who has Valen's Soul...

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1) All the Human pilots they tested did react to the Triluminary. Lennier says this explicitly. Therefore they were presumed to have Minbari souls, although not necessarily Valens.

2) Lennier speaks of Minbari souls being born "in whole or in part" in Human bodies. This suggests that the Triluminary produced very mixed results, presumably differences in intensity. It also raises the possibility that a single Minbari soul may have been reborn in several Human bodies.

3) While some members of the Council immediately thought Sinclair the reincarnation of Valen, perhaps due to the strength of the Triluminary reaction, others were skeptical, and still others rejected the idea entirely. The military caste in particular tended not to believe that Valen could have been reincarnated in Human form.

4) Simply having one Minbari, even Valen, reincarnated as a Human would not have been enough to end the war. It was only the fact that every Human they tested was "shown" to have a Minbari "soul" that convinced a majority of the Council (led by the Religious Caste) to surrender to the Humans on the ground that to continue fighting would violate the rule against Minbari killing Minbari. If it had just been Sinclair they could have saved him and continued cheerfully annihilating the rest of us.

Regards,

Joe