Shelob ROCKS! (spoilers for ROTK)

I hope to see it a second time with my best friend, and he is the type to sit through at least some of the credits. I noticed they did them in a different visual style, so I'd like to see more of them myself.

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The credits are beautiful, especially as they're accompanied by Annie Lennox

I saw it last night and there's no doubt it's great movie. LOTS of spoilers ahead!
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What I love most is the PJ's visualisation of the places and people of Middle Earth match my imagination so closely. Minas Tirith was a masterpiece, and the lighting of the beacons of Gondor was just WOW!

Nothing can quite match the sense of awe the first movie gave me, but there's no doubt the special effects have just got better and better. There are very few places where the CGI effects are obvious.

My biggest complaint is one voiced earlier. Denethor came across as a really nasty piece of work. Without the explanation of Sauron driving him to despair through the Palantir, it was impossible to feel any sympathy with the character at all. With the movie version of Denethor, I just felt, 'well, good riddance' when he burned, whereas in the book, it's a tragedy.

The charge of the Rohirrim was incredibly moving, and Theoden's death was the one point of the movie where I actually cried.

Shelob certainly rocks, but if I could nominate a single actor for an Oscar it would be Sean Astin. His portrayal of Sam is superb. Sam is the true hero of the books for me, and Sean Astin turned him into the true hero of this last movie, too

Without the explanation of Sauron driving him to despair through the Palantir, it was impossible to feel any sympathy with the character at all. With the movie version of Denethor, I just felt, 'well, good riddance' when he burned, whereas in the book, it's a tragedy.

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I disagree on that one. I hadn't read the books in awhile so I had forgotten all about that, but I still understood without the Palantir why Denethor had been driven mad. But, I do think it would have made it much easier for toher people if the Palantir had been there

Shelob certainly rocks, but if I could nominate a single actor for an Oscar it would be Sean Astin. His portrayal of Sam is superb. Sam is the true hero of the books for me, and Sean Astin turned him into the true hero of this last movie, too.

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A lot of the early reviewers said the same thing. I'm going to have to see it a 2nd or 3rd time to tell if I see the same thing in his performance everyone else is seeing. Don't get me wrong, all the performaces were great--including Sean Astin's, but I'm not sure I see where the Oscar talk is coming from. I may agree with you later, but right now, I'm undecided

In fact, the performance that surprised me the most was Billy Boyd's as Pippin. He's been my least favorite character in the first two movies, and now with RotK, I have much greater appreciation for both the character and the actor.

...but, I still understood without the Palantir why Denethor had been driven mad.

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Yeah, I didn't find out about the Palantir until later, but Denethor's madness is still understandable without it. Combine tension of war with Sauron, overwhelming responsiblity protecting the land when you're the closest country to Mordor's borders, greif over losing your son, perpetual disappointment in your other son (deserved or not), and a sense of defeat over losing Osgiliath (again), and that's a good enough formula for madness.

It's not that Denethor's madness didn't make sense; it was just kind of annoying. I guess with bigger, cooler, scarrier things going on and a higher emotional investment in previously introduced characters, I just didn't really care about Denethor's story. I'm sure he's a big enough character in the book that it would have been blasphemous to leave him out, but I still just didn't care for his problems or how he handled them.

I understand he couldn't have been cut out, but more heroism from Aragorn, more humor from Gimli, more growth from Merry & Pippin, more philosophy from Gandalf, more elegance, strength, beauty and honor from the women & elves, etc. would have been more interesting than the time spent on Denethor. He's just a necessary "evil" I guess. *Minor* gripe, nothing more.

I even hung around until the credits finished rolling, because I felt that such a magnificently crafted piece of film DESERVED it. Apparently, no one else did, since everyone but my two friends had bailed by the end of the credits.

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We all just had to go to the bathroom.

I sat throught "Into the West", but once the credits got all musical, I figured it was time to go. My roommate was getting antsy.

Here's a nice column that offers a look into how Lord of the Rings can effect music:

Prog Life

I know only one other B5TV listens to this kind of music, but I think this is interesting to Ring fans as well.

It's not that Denethor's madness didn't make sense; it was just kind of annoying.

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That's exactly my point. In the books, Denethor is tragic, in the movie, annoying. Something got lost in translation

The credits are beautiful, especially as they're accompanied by Annie Lennox

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Yes, next time I see the movie I will sit through the credits. Also, I will pee before I see the movie and not get any popcorn or drinks either. I just can't believe how crappy that theater I went to was. I mean, I knew it wasn't nice but it was the closest to the mall where I was doing my mad rush to do all my xmas shopping at. Now I remember why I never go to that theater. In a week or two I will see it again in a nice theater and sit through the credits which looked beautiful ... just like the entire movie.

I couldn't quite imagine it being any better but I am sure the EE will be. I thought it was pretty damn close to perfect but as I have been reading here ... a few things were left out. I am looking forward to the EE. Perhaps the character of Dethanor will be enhanced as Faramir was in TTT.

Yes, the lighting of the beacons was fabulous as well as the part where "You bow to no one." was said. I still get misty-eyed thinking about that scene. Shit, I cried throughout most of the movie. I also loved the look on Elrond's face when his daughter left him for her love. A perfect mixture of sadness, love and joy.

Shelob creeped me out. I hate spiders.

Sean Astin was very powerful in this movie and it will be a shame if he or this movie don't garner any Oscars.

Also, I will pee before I see the movie and not get any popcorn or drinks either.

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Stopping in the men's room right before and not getting a drink have been de rigeur for me for all 3 of the films. But why do you need to cut out the popcorn? If anything, adding the salt to your system would make your body tend to hold onto more water. Or is it a matter of not being able to stand eating popcorn without a drink?

I couldn't quite imagine it being any better but I am sure the EE will be. I thought it was pretty damn close to perfect but as I have been reading here ... a few things were left out. I am looking forward to the EE. Perhaps the character of Dethanor will be enhanced as Faramir was in TTT.

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S P O I L E R . W A R N I N G

F O R . B O O K S

A N D . M A Y B E

E X T E N D E D . E D I T I O N

My early bets for things added for the EE (besides the already known end of Saruman; not intended to be exhaustive):

Eowyn / Faramir stuff (hinted at in shot compostions during coronation).

More palentir stuff; mostly Denathor, possibly also Aragorn.

Some acknowledgement / comment on Merry and Pippin's physical growth. The Ent's draught scene wasn't in the theatrical cut of TTT so it couldn't be referred to in the theatrical RotK (although I did note that the relative heights did seem to have changed during the fairwell hugs before Frodo boarded the ship, but I was looking for it). The growth was in the EE of TTT so some comment on it when they reunite with other members of the Fellowship would be expected in the EE of RotK.

Another thing that will probably be in the EE will be the houses of healing. I have seen stills of that scene.

I'd be disappointed if the extended edition was anything less than six hours long though.

Well... I was watching it at the premiere night on december 17th. but... now I can talk about this movie. Or not... Well. Damn. I mean. Ah crap. But anyway. I loved that scene when there's one man urging to Theoden saying something like "Gondor asks for help!" then there's dramatic pause and zoom to Theoden's face and he said "And the Rohan will answer!" Oh man.. that scene kicked ass. Anyhow, I feel pity for Denethor and Faramir. Denethor, he lost his son, he lost almost everything... I really feel sorry for him... I actually can't put it to words, but somehow that moment when he jumped down, I don't know, it had great emotional impact on me. Then there's Faramir, he lost his brother Boromir, who "always" defended him, he was Faramir's big brother... Then Denethor kills himself... I don't know... It feels so... unfair. But I'll guess that war IS unfair. Only one thing I have to criticize about the film. One thing only, and well... it doesn't bother me but still. In the book, when Aragorn leads all surviving warriors to the Black Gate of Mordor, there's 7000 men. 7000 I mean, in the movie... well.. I'll guess there was something like 700... But anyway, the movie was awesome, the ending was perfect, like in the book. I liked it. Oh hell yes I liked it.

Stopping in the men's room right before and not getting a drink have been de rigeur for me for all 3 of the films. But why do you need to cut out the popcorn? If anything, adding the salt to your system would make your body tend to hold onto more water. Or is it a matter of not being able to stand eating popcorn without a drink?

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Yes, I get thirsty when eating popcorn and it is hard to eat it without. My mistake this year was doing all my holiday shopping in a mad 3-hour rush and then going and seeing a movie. Not only did I pick the worst movie theater around but I was thirsty and hungry from shopping.

This weekend, I hope to correct that mistake. I usually only go out to see a movie and if I do something else it is eating before or after the movie so I hardly ever get popcorn.

BTW, I never even knew what the Steward's name was until I visited this forum. That is how little of an impact his char had on me.

I liked the movie. It might even be the best one this year; I don't know. But I had high expectations for this one, and they were not met.

I really liked a lot of it, even some of the changes. The Smeagol/Deagol bit at the beginning was really intense, very well done. And Shelob was indeed impressive. And Theoden's death brought a tear to my eye.

But Denethor was handled poorly. In the books he's a little too proud, but he has reason to be proud -- he's an intelligent man in command of a powerful city. He prepares his people very well for war, and it's only because Sauron showed him bleak images in the palantir that he gave up. In the movie he's just an idiot. Why? Getting it right would not have been the easiest task, but it would have made the movie far better.

But the thing that irks me the most is the Sam/Frodo interaction on the "stairs" (which were ridiculously steep, by the way...). Sam would NOT leave Frodo, and Frodo wouldn't tell him to go! Never in a million years! I understand why Peter Jackson put it in, but for cryin' out loud, the journey of Frodo and Sam into Mordor is the quintessential story of friends standing by each other and helping each other! It really was extremely jarring. It didn't ruin the movie... but it came too close for comfort.

Finally, minor personal quibbles -- they left out the Aragorn/palatir scene, and Gandalf's confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul, which are two of my favorite scenes. Also Sam's heroics in the tower of Cirith Ungol, another favorite, got slimmed down almost beyond recognition.

And I'm not sure they ever got the numbers of the armies right. Outside Minas Tirith the Rohan army looked too big and Sauron's looked too small... ah well. Enough nitpicking. I just say this: it could have been worse. A lot worse. And there were indeed some beautiful moments; so it's acceptable. Not great, but acceptable.

Well, as I said in the other thread, the movie absolutely blew me away. The quibbles are so minor as to not effect me at all. If I had to pick one, it's that they should have explicitly shown Denethor with the palantir a bit more to help explain his craziness.

Both the spectacle of the film and the emotional weight are magical.

Just a few moments that stand out in my mind:

- Gandalf defending Pippin, kicking orc ass
- Smeagol's montage of turning into Gollum
- Aragorn and thus all of Gondor kneeling to the shire-folk
- Bilbo's last adventure
- The army of Mordor surrounding Gondor's forces. It looked like a crop circle.
- Eowyn vs the Witch King
- Theoden's death
- Pippin rescuing Faramir
- Gandalf assuming control of the battle
- The cursed ghost army
- The bittersweet homecoming

I'm not too fond of the Deagol/Smeagol scene. It was done well for what it was, don't get me wrong, but personally, I don't think it fits very well.

I felt it was too little too late. I think that scene was originally going to go in TTT, and that's really where it belongs. By the time RotK starts, I think we kinda get where Gollum is coming from. I know it's there to deepen the understanding of Gollum, but I think it has the potential to be confusing too.

Bilbo carried the ring for years and showed only a little bit of obvious corruption, Frodo carried it for several months and his corruption by the ring was very gradual, and Sam carried it for a few hours (maybe a few days) but seemed to remain himself fairly well.

However, Deagol is obsessed from the first moment of holding it. Smeagol hadn't even touched it yet before he was trying to get it from Deagol. And within just a few minutes they're fighting over it, and one of them is killed over it.

Why did the ring corrupt Deagol & Smeagol so much more quickly and powerfully? I'm sure there is a logical reason. Perhaps it's because Deagol & Smeagol were a more primitive form of Hobbit and therefore more succeptable, perhaps Smeagol was already a little psychologically unstable so it wasn't that far a trip to being homocidal, or perhaps it had something to do with the ring sitting unowned & unloved at the bottom of a lake for so long that it's corruption "burst" out when it was finally discovered, or all of the above.

While the reason(s) may be logical (and may be in the book), the reason(s) aren't obvious on the screen. I think that movie opens up more questions than answers by showing that scene, and it may not have been any better even if they had been shown it earlier in TTT.

I know the argument to my explanation will be that the ring affects different people in different ways, but I still say that wasn't conveyed well on screen. Someone will probably want to use Boromir as an example. He only held the chain the ring was attached to for just a few seconds and was "corrupted" by it, but after the new scene in the EE of TTT, we now know he had instructions from his father to get the ring. He already had prior knowledge of it and pre-establish desire and duty to get it. Deagol & Smeagol just looked at it without knowing what it was (ooh, it's shiny, good enough for me), and boom, they're fighting.

Bottom line, even if the scene was okay thematically and dramatically, I still could have done without the close up of him biting a live fish.

I'm going to flamed for my argument, aren't I?

The army of Mordor surrounding Gondor's forces. It looked like a crop circle.

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Totally agree, but with one minor niggle.

What happened to the horses? They all rode up to the Black Gates on horseback, and Aragorn delivered his stirring speech from his horse, but after they were surrounded, they charged into the orcs on foot. Not a horse in sight. Where did they all go?

I reckon that Shadowfax, being a VERY smart horse, worked out the odds of survival, rounded up all the other horses and led them off toward Rohan before the circle closed

Hmm, don't recall. I'm usually the last one to catch that sort of thing. If I do, it's when I watch it on DVD.


The impression I got from both the book and film is that Smeagol was already a greedy, slimy kind of dude. The biggest difference from my memory of the novel and the film is the portrayal of Deagol- I always saw him as more of an innocent, wereas in the movie he actually tries to kill Smeagol first.

One of my favorite moments was showing him entering the cave. His shunning of sunlight is a key element of the character and the Ring and it's one of those small things that adds a lot for me.

What happened to the horses? They all rode up to the Black Gates on horseback, and Aragorn delivered his stirring speech from his horse, but after they were surrounded, they charged into the orcs on foot. Not a horse in sight. Where did they all go?

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It'd probably make more sense if the Mouth of Sauron got added in (I'm guessing it got cut).

Another niggle in the movie is that you don't see how Sam picks up Sting and the phial.

...and Gandalf's confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul...

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Yeah, I think that scene will be in extended edition. Because.. well.. you can see in the official Rotk trailer that scene when Gandalf actually meets Witchking and in rotk game, but that material didn't.. well.. got in the theatherical release.