The merits of Byron

I found Byron's claim, that the galaxy owed his people a great debt, to be entirely valid. But his methods in trying to get that debt were atrocious.

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I must differ. In justice principles the galaxy, and in particular the Interstellar Alliance, doesn't owe Byron and his band one thing. If Bill wrongs you is it right to go to Bob and say, "Pay me?" In America many will insist that wrongs committed by people now dead should be paid by others, even if they weren't related. Being wronged by one person does not automatically infer a right to demand others that had no part in the offense to take up the obligation for payment. Byron might have obtained some accommodation if he hadn't allowed his resentment to cloud his judgment. Thus, whatever virtues Byron might have demonstrated, such as leadership, vision, loyalty, self-sacrifice, and gentleness, are all negated by his neurotic exclusiveness and self-pity.

QMCO5

Thus, whatever virtues Byron might have demonstrated, such as leadership, vision, loyalty, self-sacrifice, and gentleness, are all negated by his neurotic exclusiveness and self-pity.

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I wonder: exactly how would any of us behave or come to think if we were forced to wear a social dog collar and chain by the vast majority of the world's society. When one gets shat on, one tends to feel as if one's been shat on.

My biggest problem with Byron is that he was an idiot. He should have taken the problem straight to Delenn. She wouldn't have been able to simply hand him a planet, but she could have really smoothed out the process.

But then, Byron didn't know Delenn the way we know her, so might not felt able to trust her to be willing to do anything.

I found Byron's claim, that the galaxy owed his people a great debt, to be entirely valid. But his methods in trying to get that debt were atrocious.

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I must differ. In justice principles the galaxy, and in particular the Interstellar Alliance, doesn't owe Byron and his band one thing. If Bill wrongs you is it right to go to Bob and say, "Pay me?"

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If Bill turns you over to Bob for his use, then yes, Bob owes you. The ISA certainly made use of telepaths, even if they didn't create them.

KoshFan, while I don't think Byron was dumb, I agree that Delenn would have been the person to go to, but I also agree that he had no way of knowing that.

Sheridan's mistake was in not really granting the rogue teeps true asylum, and sticking by it, regardless of his motivation. He and Lochley are just as guilty as those handing fugitive slaves over to slave owners, or those sending jews back to the Nazis, regardless of "the law," which has dictated such things in the past.

Sheridan's mistake was in not really granting the rogue teeps true asylum, and sticking by it, regardless of his motivation. He and Lochley are just as guilty as those handing fugitive slaves over to slave owners, or those sending jews back to the Nazis, regardless of "the law," which has dictated such things in the past.

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Sheridan found out about first attempt by Psi Corps to round up the telepaths after a large number of Psi Cops had arrived. He than ordered Lochley to prevent them from being returned to Earth.

When the rogues had scanned the ambassadors and told the galaxy Lochley called in Psi Corps for a second time. Sheridan prevented the Psi Cops from taking the teeps back to Earth. The violent teeps were killed and the rest deported. Bester was not happy about the deportation.

If Bill turns you over to Bob for his use, then yes, Bob owes you. The ISA certainly made use of telepaths, even if they didn't create them.

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I don't believe you've worked your analogy through. The ISA made very limited use of telepaths in Season 5. Byron volunteered information without expectation of payment. Lyta didn't work for the ISA; she still belonged to PsyCorps, although she did perform service for the Centauri Republic for extortion wages. The two teeps that did agree to work for ISA was on a contract basis that implied payment. Byron would have no legal claim to later insist on a planet for services rendered, which in fact he doesn't. He could have negotiated for a homeland as part of the contract for telepath services, but alas commercial negotiation was not his strong suit. His method was blackmail. Insisting that certain people are owed something beyond what may be agreed in a contract is a slippery slope. There probably would be any number of groups lined up at the ISA office with their hands out.

QMCO5

But then, Byron didn't know Delenn the way we know her, so might not felt able to trust her to be willing to do anything.

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uh... he's a telepath

Yeah, for a second I'd bought the "he couldn't have known" argument, but GKE makes a good point. He was stealing secrets from everyone else, you think he could have spotted where the real power and generosity lay.

Yeah, for a second I'd bought the "he couldn't have known" argument, but GKE makes a good point. He was stealing secrets from everyone else, you think he could have spotted where the real power and generosity lay.

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But this points out the really interesting elements of Byron's charactor. If he had been entirely a rational, interest-seeking person, he would have been boring and so not worth JMS's time to write about.

instead, Byron was a messianic figure who was entirely wrapped up in his own image ofwhat a leader of the telepathic resistance should be. He dispised mundanes because that was expected of him by his followers -had he mundane sympathies, some of them would have turned against him (as they did, eventually).

It is Byron's complexity - his desire to serve his people while also not appearing a villian in Lyta's eyes - that he makes his impact on the B5 universe.

He was neither villian nor saint, and that is what makes his adoption by the rebel telepaths as a symbol so poiniant. And that is why JMS bothered with him - he is morally ambiguous, as is the policies towards telepaths. It is "the human heart in conflict with itself" all over again.

If Bill turns you over to Bob for his use, then yes, Bob owes you. The ISA certainly made use of telepaths, even if they didn't create them.

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I don't believe you've worked your analogy through. The ISA made very limited use of telepaths in Season 5. Byron volunteered information without expectation of payment. Lyta didn't work for the ISA; she still belonged to PsyCorps, although she did perform service for the Centauri Republic for extortion wages. The two teeps that did agree to work for ISA was on a contract basis that implied payment. Byron would have no legal claim to later insist on a planet for services rendered, which in fact he doesn't. He could have negotiated for a homeland as part of the contract for telepath services, but alas commercial negotiation was not his strong suit. His method was blackmail. Insisting that certain people are owed something beyond what may be agreed in a contract is a slippery slope. There probably would be any number of groups lined up at the ISA office with their hands out.

QMCO5

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You seem to have forgotten how Sheridan was able to end the struggle against Earth Gov with minimal loss of life, not to mention many other uses mundanes had for telepaths. Byron was talking about the responsibility of mundanes in general, to all rogue Earth teeps, not just his own little band. He wanted sanctuary for everyone.

How much is being turned into a "weapons component" on Shadow Ships worth, or, better, what would the damages in lawsuits by their survivors be worth? Add pain and suffering realized from being part of a Shadow ship, or being modified to be part of one, and one planet seems a very paltry sum. Teeps were created to serve the mundanes as weapons, it's that simple, and that calls for recompense. Humans pay for normal, non-living weapons, so, how much more for living ones?

Let's not get hung up on use of the ISA term.

It is certainly true that the ISA itself made little "use" of telepaths as far as we saw in the show. However, those worlds who now make up the ISA made significant use of them during the shadow war and afterwards ...

* The frozen teeps used to help Sheridan's fleet bypass the Mars ambush on its way to Earth
* The issuing of teeps to every ship from all races taking part in the assault on the shadow fleet in Shadow Dancing - and presumably during all subsequent battles.

... to name two.

Whilst this was not, strictly speaking, the ISA, by the time Byron and his followers come to B5 the Alliance is the authoritative collective voice for the worlds involved in the war against the shadows and in backing up Sheridan's fleet. So the ISA is the body to which Byron was inevitably going to appeal for a teep homeworld.

And there are any number of reasons why he may have chosen not to scan Delenn, not least of which is that it was Sheridan that gave his group sanctuary in the first place and one thing guaranteed to turn him against them would be finding out that they illegally scanned his wife (and the Alliance Vice-President) to further their own ends.

Wasn't the Vorlons the proper defendants of any lawsuits by the telepaths? After all, they made them telepathic for use as weapons. And except for the implanted "super-telepaths" used in the battle for Mars, the telepaths that took part in the war were either volunteers, hired, or alien.

Of course the Vorlons were really the ones to blame, but as they'd conveniently skipped town, and as we all know that someone has to be blamed for it, Byron picked the ISA.

Of course the Vorlons were really the ones to blame, but as they'd conveniently skipped town, and as we all know that someone has to be blamed for it, Byron picked the ISA.

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That's how society seems to work these days, and there's no reason to think human nature will have become more "reasonable" in another 250 years or so.

Let's think about this. Whoever was responsible for the Vorlon's assets should also be responsible for their debts and liability. Ah, that's the solution: Humanity really was the ones responsible, but only in a million years when we take over the Vorlon homeworld. Any redress would have to wait untill then

Of course, Byron's merry band should have demanded a space cruiser from the ISA and gone to Vorlon space to try and get what they deserved. And the Vorlon auto-defence systems just might have given it to them...

Byron and his band (except Lyta) did not take part in the Shadow War or Earth civil war. They are claim jumpers wanting payment for work done by others.

Sheridan's payment to the telepaths was allowing them to stay on Babylon 5 and refusing permission for Psi Corps to take them back.

Byron and his band (except Lyta) did not take part in the Shadow War or Earth civil war. They are claim jumpers wanting payment for work done by others.

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You don't know the backstory of all of his followers. His cult members probably came to him at different times. Sheridan did use rogue teeps, among others (alien teeps). I bet a few joined up with Byron after the Shadow War.

And yes, Byron's vision was for all telepaths.

Byron knew about Dr Franklin's connection to the telepath railway but the use of telepaths in the Shadow War appears to have been a surprise. If the pacifist’s supporters had fought then Byron would have known.

so if we experiment on lab rats, in 250 years are the lab rats going to demand a planet of their own?