JMS, Crusade, and the Tail of TNT

I've just finished going through B5 and Crusade myself, like a lot of others are apparently doing.

When the Crusade set came out, there was all of the hullabaloo about the Commentary by JMS about the TNT story of what they did to Crusade, and how WB had shafted him and not included it.

To be honest, I personally don't think it could've been said any better than in the script for Appearances and Other Deceits. I always knew that episode was a rebellion against the interference, but, I had only seen it once when it originally aired. Now having seen it a second time, ti screams the whole situation to me.

Anyone else have this experience?

Oops, used the wrong tale in the title, and can't seem to edit it.

I don't even remember that episode, so I cant comment. But when I did watch it, I didn't make that connection, but I probably wasn't looking for it...

I remember wondering at the time whether TNT cancelled the show in part because JMS went too far in that episode, and they took it personally..

But it was madness. Change the uniforms? Okay, but much better to do it at the end of the season, so it didn't look so much like they were admitting having made a mistake (it wasn't even like the grey uniforms were terrible). Film a new pilot? Racing the Night is an awesome pilot with much the same sense of momentum and mystery as Midnight on the Firing Line, but I can just about see the argument for something more traditional. But change the uniforms and then insist on filming the new pilot with the new uniforms, screwing up the episode order and necessitating two uniform changes within the first season? Madness. Thinking about it still makes me angry..

But Appearances and Other Deceits is one of my favourite Crusade episodes.

Recoil said:

I don't even remember that episode, so I cant comment. But when I did watch it, I didn't make that connection, but I probably wasn't looking for it...

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It's the Uniform change one, with the Princess of a black guy designer, going around talking about color schemes, and Neroon (John Vickery) as a human. The other half of the storyline was the passing of the Alien intelligence through touch.

Sindatur said:

I've just finished going through B5 and Crusade myself, like a lot of others are apparently doing.

When the Crusade set came out, there was all of the hullabaloo about the Commentary by JMS about the TNT story of what they did to Crusade, and how WB had shafted him and not included it.

To be honest, I personally don't think it could've been said any better than in the script for Appearances and Other Deceits. I always knew that episode was a rebellion against the interference, but, I had only seen it once when it originally aired. Now having seen it a second time, it screams the whole situation to me.

Anyone else have this experience?

Click to expand...

Not to mention the lines in War Zone:

Mr. Ames: "This is a highly political situation back home, Captain. There are going to be a lot of people looking over your shoulder on this. We've had to make some compromises to get this show on the road."

KoshN said:

Not to mention the lines in War Zone:

Mr. Ames: "This is a highly political situation back home, Captain. There are going to be a lot of people looking over your shoulder on this. We've had to make some compromises to get this show on the road."

Click to expand...

Oh Yea, I recall the light bulb flashing on that too, as that is the ep before Appearances and Other Deceits on the "reccomended" viewing order

Sindatur said:

.... and Neroon (John Vickery) as a human.

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It was John Vickery's reappearance as Mr. Welles, a role in which he initially appeared in the Babylon 5 Season 2 finale, "The Fall of Night." In "Appearances and Other Deceits" he even makes reference to his ability to survive political changes.

Sindatur said:

The other half of the storyline was the passing of the Alien intelligence through touch.

Click to expand...

Shown through a very cool effect, IMHO.

RMcD said:

I remember wondering at the time whether TNT cancelled the show in part because JMS went too far in that episode, and they took it personally..

But it was madness. Change the uniforms? Okay, but much better to do it at the end of the season, so it didn't look so much like they were admitting having made a mistake (it wasn't even like the grey uniforms were terrible). Film a new pilot? Racing the Night is an awesome pilot with much the same sense of momentum and mystery as Midnight on the Firing Line, but I can just about see the argument for something more traditional. But change the uniforms and then insist on filming the new pilot with the new uniforms, screwing up the episode order and necessitating two uniform changes within the first season? Madness. Thinking about it still makes me angry..

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But was it malice or stupidity, the uniform change during the first production shutdown? I'm guessing it was stupidity, and they thought the show could go ahead as Baywatch Meets Texas Whorehouse Meets Wrestling in Space, with JMS caving to their every whim.

Crusade Production Order:
101 The Needs of Earth
102 The Memory of War
103 Racing the Night
104 Visitors from Down the Street
105 Each Night I Dream of Home

The first production shutdown.

106 The Well of Forever
107 The Long Road
108 War Zone
109 The Path of Sorrows
110 Patterns of the Soul
111 Ruling from the Tomb
112 The Rules of the Game
113 Appearances and Other Deceits

I get a kick out of how Gideon and Lochley meet each other for the first time in 2 out of the 4 episodes she was in.

Oh, and I never realized Tim Choate was one of "The Most Holy" Lorkans

Sindatur said:

I get a kick out of how Gideon and Lochley meet each other for the first time in 2 out of the 4 episodes she was in.

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Tracy was only in three episodes of Crusade:

Ruling from the Tomb (looped 1st meeting)
Each Night I Dream of Home (probably initially intended 1st meeting, looped to make it 2nd.)
The Rules of the Game (last meeting in the filmed 13)

Sindatur said:

Oh, and I never realized Tim Choate was one of "The Most Holy" Lorkans

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Polix wasn't one of the Most Holy. He revered them, at least he appeared to revere them. Who knows, it might all have been an act on Polix's part. <shrug>

KoshN said:

Not to mention the lines in War Zone:

Mr. Ames: "This is a highly political situation back home, Captain. There are going to be a lot of people looking over your shoulder on this. We've had to make some compromises to get this show on the road."

Click to expand...

Lol, that's brilliant, I never made that connection . Given the scrutiny that the scripts seem to have been being subjected to at that point, I can't believe JMS assumed he could slip these things past. Nobody likes being taken for a fool, least of all a fool in a suit..

(and looking back at the production order, Appearances and Other Deceits was the last one actually to be produced before they pulled the plug.. Maybe they didn't like the rushes..)

KoshN said:

Tracy was only in three episodes of Crusade:

Ruling from the Tomb (looped 1st meeting)
Each Night I Dream of Home (probably initially intended 1st meeting, looped to make it 2nd.)
The Rules of the Game (last meeting in the filmed 13)

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Ah, see I cheated by checking IMDB, and it says 4 episodes, but "The Long Road" says "Credit Only"

KoshN said:

But was it malice or stupidity, the uniform change during the first production shutdown? I'm guessing it was stupidity, and they thought the show could go ahead as Baywatch Meets Texas Whorehouse Meets Wrestling in Space, with JMS caving to their every whim.

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Stupidity for sure. They paid for the uniform change and also injected some extra cash to build new sets (like the gym) - I'm sure both moves were well-intended at the time. The real malice seems to have started with the script notes after they restarted.

Internal politics must have been atrocious for one part of the company to start deliberately undermining a show another part was producing in order to force its cancellation.

But let's say some good things about TNT.. They stumped up the cash for the whole of Season 5, 4 TV movies and 5 mostly unadulterated episodes of Crusade before turning to the dark side..

RMcD said:

Stupidity for sure. They paid for the uniform change and also injected some extra cash to build new sets (like the gym) - I'm sure both moves were well-intended at the time. The real malice seems to have started with the script notes after they restarted.

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Not necessarily. The shutdown and cash infusion for uniforms and sets came after an internal TNT memo hit the 'net specifying many of the baser suggestions that came to light as being actual requests. I always had the impression that it was face saving, not any real show of support.

Jan

Jan said:

Not necessarily. The shutdown and cash infusion for uniforms and sets came after an internal TNT memo hit the 'net specifying many of the baser suggestions that came to light as being actual requests. I always had the impression that it was face saving, not any real show of support.

Jan

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Okay. I remember finding those particular decisions puzzling at the time. It seems like the atmosphere was so poisonous while that show was being made, I'm actually kind of glad JMS stuck to his principles ultimately, even if they were incompatible with Crusade's continuing. And what we did get was good enough.

I'm really hoping the straight-to-DVD model which TLT is attempting, bypassing the networks, is a wild success. Now and in the future it seems like it would be the most natural home for B5. It works for me - these days I tend to view my television as a device for streaming 24-hour news and as a DVD / download preview box, I don't really go to it to be entertained anymore.

RMcD said:

It seems like the atmosphere was so poisonous while that show was being made, I'm actually kind of glad JMS stuck to his principles ultimately, even if they were incompatible with Crusade's continuing. And what we did get was good enough.

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Given that atmosphere, I'm surprised Crusade turned out as well as it did.

RMcD said:

I'm really hoping the straight-to-DVD model which TLT is attempting, bypassing the networks, is a wild success.

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You and me both.

RMcD said:

Now and in the future it seems like it would be the most natural home for B5. It works for me - these days I tend to view my television as a device for streaming 24-hour news and as a DVD / download preview box, I don't really go to it to be entertained anymore.

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That's how I view TV as well, a place to preview the TV Shows I want to buy on DVD.

To ask a blunt question: what kind of pay does everyone get from a "direct to DVD" movie?

I suppose that might vary with each contract, but in general, would it pay as well as television? Or the movies?

The uniform changes during the first production shut-down (along with the set changes and new paint) were a result of TNT's inexperience with filmed series production. The suits in Atlanta viewed the first five episodes as AVID video editing files. The AVID files are lo-res and tend to be dark and grainy looking. They're basically computer files used to edit an episode on-line, and provide a guide for the final editing of the actual film and the creation of the full-res final composite video. In the AVID files there wasn't enough contrast between the grey uniforms and the sets, edges got lost, people tended to blend into the background. Because they weren't familiar with the whole process, the TNT Atlanta people thought that what they were seeing was what the episodes would actually look like,and ordered the sets made lighter and the uniforms darker to "fix" the problem. Meanwhile Babylonian thought this was purely an aesthetic issue and didn't think it was worrth fighting about, so they just made the changes without asking many questions. It wasn't until some of the Atlanta made it out to L.A. and saw the actual footage from "Racing the Night" and other early episodes that the whole misunderstanding was uncovered.

Regards,

Joe

hypatia said:

To ask a blunt question: what kind of pay does everyone get from a "direct to DVD" movie?

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I assume as much as their agent can negotiate for, like everything else. I would think that the Direct to DVD market has been around long enough to have scale minimums set but I don't know that for sure--especially since most of the D2DVD projects I'm familiar with are animation.

Thanks, Jan. But what I meant was: does it usually pay well enough to pull the same kind of quality actors to projects? Well, and quality directors and everything else.

I was under the impression that direct to DVD was a market assumed to be "lower" than television or movies.

Lower on the pay scale, for everyone.

Is that my mistake?