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The merits of Byron
- Thread starter HeinleinFan
- Start date
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Good points, GH. These were the things I was alluding to, in my less specific post. The Vorlons made them, but the humans and others employed them, so, they can pay the bill.
I would point out that right now, there are several sanctuaries, in the US, for higher primates, like chimps and gorillas, that were used in experiments. These sanctuaries are intended to let them live out their lives in as pleasant and natural a setting as possible. So, we're showing more humanity to some chimps now, than the teeps were shown.
I would point out that right now, there are several sanctuaries, in the US, for higher primates, like chimps and gorillas, that were used in experiments. These sanctuaries are intended to let them live out their lives in as pleasant and natural a setting as possible. So, we're showing more humanity to some chimps now, than the teeps were shown.
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Hi folks. Sorry I haven't responded to you earlier. I got some interesting replies from my previous post.
Byron was a tragic figure, who failed because of his own flaws. Did jms consider his pacifism one of those flaws?
Hi folks. Sorry I haven't responded to you earlier. I got some interesting replies from my previous post.
Hate maybe have been too strong a word. Byron did rebel against Bester when he was forced to kill mundanes. He was a sincere pacifist, and yet he killed one of his people. As he said, "We are no longer what we were, we are now what we have become." Perhaps that led to his suicide.
Byron was a tragic figure, who failed because of his own flaws. Did jms consider his pacifism one of those flaws?
deaded
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
I don’t like how Byron stabbed Sheridan in the back. The President went out on a limb for them allowing them to stay at B5 when Lockley had already said no. How did he repay this kindness? He blackmailed the ambassadors undermining the Alliance. He was as disdainful of mundanes as was Bester.
Besides, no one owed or the telepaths anything IMHO. It’s true that telepaths were created by the Vorlons to act as weapons against the Shadows, but the Vorlons are gone. So now it’s up someone else to pay that debt (if you even accept that the debt exists in the first place)? I don’t think so. As someone else pointed out, earth didn’t even FIGHT in the shadow war. They were too busy with their own problems. On Mars they never even heard about the Shadow war and I’d venture to guess that the same was true of Earth. In fact, all the telepaths that were used in the Shadow War by the alliance were volunteers (in the sense that they enlisted rather than being drafted). And the “Weapons components,” were made that way by the Shadows, not humans who didn't have the means to save them. So if Byron’s people weren’t used as weapons then why are they owed something? Byron essentially wants to be paid for someone else’s sacrifice or misfortune (similar to one early episode where this human was suing an alien for abducting his great great great grandfather). I agree with ChiLlBeserker in that Byron’s attitude of entitlement really rubbed me the wrong way. Working in the health care field I see too many people with that attitude every day; it’s one of society’s lurking problems and feeds the growing tide of intolerance we see today.
Unless of course they really ARE superior. In which case it ends badly for us (known as evolution).
No, because if you want to say that the teeps are justified in hating the normals then certainly the normals are justified in hating the teeps. In fact Byron and his crew gave mundanes even more justification for hating teeps.
I don’t like how Byron stabbed Sheridan in the back. The President went out on a limb for them allowing them to stay at B5 when Lockley had already said no. How did he repay this kindness? He blackmailed the ambassadors undermining the Alliance. He was as disdainful of mundanes as was Bester.
Besides, no one owed or the telepaths anything IMHO. It’s true that telepaths were created by the Vorlons to act as weapons against the Shadows, but the Vorlons are gone. So now it’s up someone else to pay that debt (if you even accept that the debt exists in the first place)? I don’t think so. As someone else pointed out, earth didn’t even FIGHT in the shadow war. They were too busy with their own problems. On Mars they never even heard about the Shadow war and I’d venture to guess that the same was true of Earth. In fact, all the telepaths that were used in the Shadow War by the alliance were volunteers (in the sense that they enlisted rather than being drafted). And the “Weapons components,” were made that way by the Shadows, not humans who didn't have the means to save them. So if Byron’s people weren’t used as weapons then why are they owed something? Byron essentially wants to be paid for someone else’s sacrifice or misfortune (similar to one early episode where this human was suing an alien for abducting his great great great grandfather). I agree with ChiLlBeserker in that Byron’s attitude of entitlement really rubbed me the wrong way. Working in the health care field I see too many people with that attitude every day; it’s one of society’s lurking problems and feeds the growing tide of intolerance we see today.
Unless of course they really ARE superior. In which case it ends badly for us (known as evolution).
No, because if you want to say that the teeps are justified in hating the normals then certainly the normals are justified in hating the teeps. In fact Byron and his crew gave mundanes even more justification for hating teeps.
hypatia
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Deaded, you remind me that I need to rewatch the entire series. But it is unclear as to what B5 paid Lyta. You can't say she did nothing for the station and for Sheridan. She put her neck on the line over and over again. And was getting moved to smaller quarters because she couldn't be employed legally.
It just seems a bit like thanking Superman profusely for saving your life, then telling him he can sleep in the barn when he can't get a job.
Deaded, you remind me that I need to rewatch the entire series. But it is unclear as to what B5 paid Lyta. You can't say she did nothing for the station and for Sheridan. She put her neck on the line over and over again. And was getting moved to smaller quarters because she couldn't be employed legally.
It just seems a bit like thanking Superman profusely for saving your life, then telling him he can sleep in the barn when he can't get a job.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Lyta's rent was paid by the Vorlons so they probably also gave her an allowance for food and clothing. After the rent incident money was mentioned when Lyta was hired. Franklin arranged payment for the journey to Mars.
Lyta's rent was paid by the Vorlons so they probably also gave her an allowance for food and clothing. After the rent incident money was mentioned when Lyta was hired. Franklin arranged payment for the journey to Mars.
deaded
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
I don't know about that KoshFan, I think Lyta was dealing with things as well as anyone might. She was still able to relate to individuals on a personal level even though she was frustrated and financially challenged. Byron screwed her up. She fell in love with a Jim Jones/David Koresh-type and he brainwashed her. I think it's as simple as that. P-12’s do that stuff all the time. She was as gooey-eyed for Byron as Delen was for Sheridan. You don’t think Lyta was special to him, do you? No way, I’m sure he boinked every new recruit. He was clearly using her to even a greater extent than Sheridan and his crew had.
Hypatia, I’m not arguing that Lyta was not owed something; at least in a moral sense. But not a freakin’ PLANET! But anyway, yes, there was certainly a karmic debt there but I think Sheridan realized this. It was without a doubt the reason he took such a bold step and countered one of Lochley’s first decisions, resulting in the teeps being able to stay on B5 and even given some space (I think it was in Brown Sector, wasn’t it?).
I don't know about that KoshFan, I think Lyta was dealing with things as well as anyone might. She was still able to relate to individuals on a personal level even though she was frustrated and financially challenged. Byron screwed her up. She fell in love with a Jim Jones/David Koresh-type and he brainwashed her. I think it's as simple as that. P-12’s do that stuff all the time. She was as gooey-eyed for Byron as Delen was for Sheridan. You don’t think Lyta was special to him, do you? No way, I’m sure he boinked every new recruit. He was clearly using her to even a greater extent than Sheridan and his crew had.
Hypatia, I’m not arguing that Lyta was not owed something; at least in a moral sense. But not a freakin’ PLANET! But anyway, yes, there was certainly a karmic debt there but I think Sheridan realized this. It was without a doubt the reason he took such a bold step and countered one of Lochley’s first decisions, resulting in the teeps being able to stay on B5 and even given some space (I think it was in Brown Sector, wasn’t it?).
2aMageing
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
I've just recently been rewatching season 2,3,4 and currently 5.......and I watched a sequence where Lyta had to scan a dying Ranger to find out about a world in need of Whitestar protection........after the ranger died while she was in his mind, she shortly after explained, to zack I think, that every time telepath experiences the passing of someone while in their mind.........it takes a piece of their , heart, hummanity, spirit, or some such......and she mentioned she had done it a couple times already.
For me, it seems like that event and it's affects may have done more to explain her reduced feeling for others(manipulating whole rooms of people, focus on destruction of the Core rather than helping people) obviously not fully broken until Byron died.....sort of taking a final piece with him................I don't think her anger and hardness were much, if at all, a conscious choice.
I've just recently been rewatching season 2,3,4 and currently 5.......and I watched a sequence where Lyta had to scan a dying Ranger to find out about a world in need of Whitestar protection........after the ranger died while she was in his mind, she shortly after explained, to zack I think, that every time telepath experiences the passing of someone while in their mind.........it takes a piece of their , heart, hummanity, spirit, or some such......and she mentioned she had done it a couple times already.
For me, it seems like that event and it's affects may have done more to explain her reduced feeling for others(manipulating whole rooms of people, focus on destruction of the Core rather than helping people) obviously not fully broken until Byron died.....sort of taking a final piece with him................I don't think her anger and hardness were much, if at all, a conscious choice.
deaded
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
LOL! Great analogy! Which is why I'm pretty sure that when they retire, most all superheros turn to crime.
It just seems a bit like thanking Superman profusely for saving your life, then telling him he can sleep in the barn when he can't get a job.
LOL! Great analogy! Which is why I'm pretty sure that when they retire, most all superheros turn to crime.
