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The rank system in earthforce.

Wow, it's been awhile. Some of you around here may remember me. I'm in the United States Air Force now and so things like rank and uniforms stand out to me when I watch TV and movies now. So I have a couple of questions about Babylon 5.

Now I've come to realize that Earth Force uses the Navy/Coast Guard rank structure. Well, mostly anyway. They've kinda combined it with the Army/Air Force/Marines structure. They've replaced the Rear Admiral - Admiral ranks with the Brigader General - General ranks. Except in the episode Eyes when we meet a Colonel (The equivalent of a Captain. That's why Sinclair saluted first.), and I still havn't figured out what to make of that.

My questions, however, are these. In Day of the Dead, Lochley says, when shes talking to Zoe, "... about 10 years ago I enrolled in earth force cadet corps..." In season 5 she's a Captain. That's an O-6. How the heck did she make rank that quickly?

My other question is this. When Lochley was explaining to Garabaldi that she and Sheriden had been married, I forget the episode, she said that they either met or got married right out of officers traing school (OTS). She went to the Acadamy and so did Sheriden. Why then would they go to OTS? It doesn't make sense.

Later,
HockeyPlayer47
 
Welcome back.
Now I've come to realize that Earth Force uses the Navy/Coast Guard rank structure. Well, mostly anyway. They've kinda combined it with the Army/Air Force/Marines structure. They've replaced the Rear Admiral - Admiral ranks with the Brigadier General - General ranks. Except in the episode Eyes when we meet a Colonel (The equivalent of a Captain. That's why Sinclair saluted first.), and I still havn't figured out what to make of that.

That one is simple. The current purpose of the British and US Armies is to kill humans on land. In 200 years time the Earthforce army is only meant to kill aliens.

Soldiers are carried to the battlefield by spaceship. There is a name for soldiers who go by ship - marines. So the Marine Corps have absorbed the Army (they are now referred to as Gropos).

Helicopters have resulted in the army, navy and air force having pilots. This is causing problems; see what the British Army is doing about pilot training.

In World War 2 the Navy and Army belonged to different government ministries. During the Cold War they were joined together under the Department/Ministry of Defence. This makes joint operations a little easier to arrange. Given 200 years we may have got round to making the officers interchangeable as well.

As for the colonel wearing an army uniform, once you are on the ground the need for camouflage exceeds the desire for everyone to wear the same navy blue uniform.

Babylon 5 is a space station. So it has been classified as a spaceship/port rather than as an army base. The officers have therefore been drafted from the space side rather than the Gropos side of Earthforce.

My questions, however, are these. In Day of the Dead, Lochley says, when shes talking to Zoe, "... about 10 years ago I enrolled in earth force cadet corps..." In season 5 she's a Captain. That's an O-6. How the heck did she make rank that quickly?

Three methods.
1. President Clark organised a mammoth expansion of Earthforce. If you double the number of ships you need twice as many captains. That is very good for a young officer's promotion prospects.
2. After the Earth-Minbari War the space side of Earthforce re-armed, good for a young officers promotion prospects.
3. Dead man’s shoes. About 14 years ago the Earth-Minbari War ended with the massacre known as the Battle of the Line. Earthforce put up anything that could fly. Approximately 200 men survived. So the only experienced officers left were either Gropos or flow a desk.

Under these conditions getting promoted every 2 years is quite likely.

Side thought. Nightwatch offered Ivanova quick promotion in return for co-operation. I wonder what Lochley’s reply was?

My other question is this. When Lochley was explaining to Garibaldi that she and Sheridan had been married, I forget the episode, she said that they either met or got married right out of officers training school (OTS). She went to the Academy and so did Sheridan. Why then would they go to OTS? It doesn't make sense.

My suspicion is that the Academy and the OTS are just different names for the same place.
 
Apparently, Ivanova also climbed ranks rather quickly. During the Minbari War, she hadn't even signed up with Earth Force yet. Either the pilot or the first season took place 10 years after the war. By the first few eps of season 2, she was already a commander, and she was made captain by the end of season 4. That's zero to captain in about 14 years. Is that reasonable? I honestly don't know.

Perhaps so many personnel were wiped out during the war that promotions happened quickly over the next decade to replenish the upper ranks.

Here are a few more questions about rank and division:

1. Brown uniforms are for marines. That much is pretty clear. Do the light grey uniforms without the vertical leather stripe signify police force specifically or enlisted personnel in general?

2. Does the dark grey with vertical leather stripe imply warrant officer or the head of a department of light grey officers (I think Garibaldi was the only dark grey w/leather uniform person in the whole series)?

3. You'd think that the blue uniforms would imply the "naval" or "fleet" branch, but Major Ryan and possibly an admiral or two also wear blue uniforms, as opposed to brown or grey. So, does blue signify fleet and army, or fleet and an equivalent of air force?

4. I'm not positive, but I think some of the officers in C & C wore blue uniforms but without the leather stripe. If I'm right, then what does the leather signify? Senior officer? Command staff? Department head?

5. Did Dr. Franklin also have a military rank the same way Crusher and Bashir did in Star Trek? If so, was it ever shown or mentioned; and if not, then the leather stripe must mean command staff or department head or else why would Franklin have it.

6. Was the Excalibur an Earth Force ship or an Interstellar Alliance ship, and if it was Earth Force, why did they have to have different uniforms in the first place? If they had used the standard Earth Force uniform, maybe JMS & TNT wouldn't have gotten into conflict about them.

7. Is there a canon source out there that explains the rank insignia? I know that 2 bars and a slanted block (let's call it a "wedge") is for captain, and 1 bar and a wedge is for commander. I can't remember what Lieutenant Commander, Lieutenant, Lt. J.G., or Ensign were.

8. Did we ever see or hear about any ensigns in Babylon 5? If not, was it just coincidence, or does Earth Force skip straight to Lt. J.G.?
 
Most of this is IMO, but here's the deal on Earthforce:

"Earthforce" as a single organization most closely approximates the US Department of Defense or the UK Ministry of Defense, neither of which are strictly military. In addition to the military, EF is also the civilian political/management bureaucracy. On the military side, Earthforce consists of two semi-autonomous arms. The first is the Fleet, controlling the EA's warships, support craft and fighters. The fleet can be further subdivided - there's a capital warship branch (Sheridan), a fighter branch (Sinclair, Ivanova), a medical branch (Franklin) and presumably others. Officers in the Fleet use a modified version of the US naval rank structure (Ensign, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander, Commander, Captain).

The second arm of Earthforce is the Ground Pounders, or GROPOs. They wear dark brown. Any military action not involving space combat is their responsibility. Like the Fleet, they have branches such as Infantry (General Franklin), Security (Michael Garibaldi), Intelligence (Colonel Ben Zayn) and others. Unlike the Fleet, they use the US Army/Marine/Air Force rank structure (Warrant Officer, Second Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel)

As for the Generals - EF seems to have dropped Flag officers (Admirals) in favor of General officers. It would seem that once a military member is promoted beyond Captain in the Fleet or GROPO Colonel, they are no longer considered a member of their arm and so are all called General.

Of course, I'm sure that there probably were a few slip-ups - Major Ryan would have been a GROPO and so wouldn't have ended up commanding General Hague's Omega even if he were the ranking officer - but for the most part JMS stayed relatively consistant.

V/R
John
 
Having a slight interest in this area due to my having researched military rank strcture for a novel I am writing, I have studied the EF rank intensely.

Do the light grey uniforms without the vertical leather stripe signify police force specifically or enlisted personnel in general?

Not everyon that wears a uniform on B5 is in EarthForce. The best way to tell the differecne is: those with the EA symbol on their chest and shoulder (the shoulder patch showing what department they are assigned to) are members of EarthForce. Those with the crosshair symbol on the chest and the stylized "5" on the shoulder are part of the Security Division, a seperate component from EF, funded by the station itself. Many might be former EF members, but would have no connection at the time they were wearing that particular uniform on B5.

Apparently, Ivanova also climbed ranks rather quickly. During the Minbari War, she hadn't even signed up with Earth Force yet. Either the pilot or the first season took place 10 years after the war. By the first few eps of season 2, she was already a commander, and she was made captain by the end of season 4. That's zero to captain in about 14 years. Is that reasonable? I honestly don't know.

War, the resulting death toll, is real good for promotion. If you are smart and resourceful (as Ivanova has shown herself to be), chances of moving up would even be better.

Is there a canon source out there that explains the rank insignia? I know that 2 bars and a slanted block (let's call it a "wedge") is for captain, and 1 bar and a wedge is for commander. I can't remember what Lieutenant Commander, Lieutenant, Lt. J.G., or Ensign were.

Not sure how "canon" this is, but B5Tech.com has information that comes from direct viewing of the series. The rank illistrations seem to match up.

Did Dr. Franklin also have a military rank the same way Crusher and Bashir did in Star Trek? If so, was it ever shown or mentioned; and if not, then the leather stripe must mean command staff or department head or else why would Franklin have it.

In the couple of seasons, Franklin didn't have any ranks on his uniform, but by season three, he did. The best place to see it is in "Severed Dreams". It tough to make-out, the best I can guess is he's either a commander or lieutenant commander.

Does the dark grey with vertical leather stripe imply warrant officer or the head of a department of light grey officers (I think Garibaldi was the only dark grey w/leather uniform person in the whole series)?

Garibaldi is tough because he is the only Non-comissioned Officer (NCO) we see over the course of the series (other than Sgt. Major Plug in "GROPOS"). From what I can gather, either NCOs or security personnel wear the gray uniform that Garibaldi wears.

Did we ever see or hear about any ensigns in Babylon 5? If not, was it just coincidence, or does Earth Force skip straight to Lt. J.G.?

In the second season opener "Points of Departure", the officer that tells Sheridan about the call from General Hague is listed in the credits as "Ensign" (and is played by Kim Strauss, one of the "Alien Rep Company" and best known as the face of the Drazi).

Was the Excalibur an Earth Force ship or an Interstellar Alliance ship, and if it was Earth Force, why did they have to have different uniforms in the first place? If they had used the standard Earth Force uniform, maybe JMS & TNT wouldn't have gotten into conflict about them.

The Excalibur was an Interstellar Alliance ship staffed with a mixed crew of IA and EarthForce members to find a crew for the Drakh plague that was going to wipe out all life on Earth. The different uniforms may have been a way of showing this, or might just have been TNT's way of screwing things up.

You'd think that the blue uniforms would imply the "naval" or "fleet" branch, but Major Ryan and possibly an admiral or two also wear blue uniforms, as opposed to brown or grey. So, does blue signify fleet and army, or fleet and an equivalent of air force?

Major Ryan is the one glaring anomaly in the B5 universe. Every other character seen in blue has had a naval rank and if they had a Army/Air Force/Marine rank, they were in brown. One possible explanation is that he was a liasion with ground troops, having the rank of major, but technically attached to the Navy.

Hope this was helpful in any way.
 
From things I've read, though at the moment I can't remember where from, the Major Ryan character as we know him on screen also included a "wardrobe malfucntion" (I remember those exact words used in relation to that character). I don't know if it has to do with the color of the uniform itself or with the pins attached to his uniform.
 
JMS mentions in the commentary on "Severed Dreams" that the uniform for Major Ryan took some adjusting since it meant to fot a certain profile (such as that of the first officer on the Alexander) and Ryan had a "somewhat larger profile".

The actor cast was not the actor JMS orignally wanted. He asked Everett(sp?) McGill from Twin Peaks to appear and when the time came to shoot this episode, got the actors name wrong, casting Bruce McGill. It worked out, because he does give a very good performance.
 
The actor cast was not the actor JMS orignally wanted. He asked Everett(sp?) McGill from Twin Peaks to appear and when the time came to shoot this episode, got the actors name wrong, casting Bruce McGill. It worked out, because he does give a very good performance.

Yeah, this is interesting. Had it not been for jms's words during the commentary, I would never have guessed that the guest actor was not the one intitially wanted/chosen for the role. The man playing Major Ryan in the episode is so good, in my opinion, that I'm not sure I could see the character being anyone else. But according to jms's commentary, he intitially saw the character as being performed by someone else.
 
The old Major Ryan controversy.

I don't know how this would help at all, but in the Royal Navy back around 1800 bigger ships had a navy captain (in command) and a captain of marines. As there could only be one captain on a navy ship to avoid confusion, the Marine officer got a temporary and meaningless promotion to major.

This doesn't help us much, as Ryan is obviously not a Marine. But it might eventually allow for some Rube Goldberg explanation.

One question that's often raised is why Captain Hiroshi deferred to Ryan during the battle when she's theoretically senior in rank. My proposed solution is that she didn't have to, but did so out of courtesy to Ryan because he'd been closer to the general and therefore had a better grasp of what Hague wanted. And they all deferred to Sheridan because it was his turf and he had the best idea of how to defend the place -- as well as being respected for fighting bad odds and winning. I'm sure everyone on both sides of the battle remembered Sheridan's success in the war.
 
Was the Excalibur an Earth Force ship or an Interstellar Alliance ship, and if it was Earth Force, why did they have to have different uniforms in the first place? If they had used the standard Earth Force uniform, maybe JMS & TNT wouldn't have gotten into conflict about them.

Excalibur was an Interstellar Alliance ship staffed with a mixed crew of IA and EarthForce members to find a crew for the Drakh plague that was going to wipe out all life on Earth. The different uniforms may have been a way of showing this, or might just have been TNT's way of screwing things up.

Gideon and Matheson were wearing the black uniforms before they transferred to the Excalibur. Those uniforms appear to have been worn only on the Earthforce Explorer class ships (Gideon and Matheson transferred from the Explorer ship Phoenix)
 
I read somewhere time ago that "major" Ryan was originally to be a fleet commander or captain , but that the wardrobe dept. erroneously pinned major ensigns on his uniform , thus making him a Major , and beginning an unendless debate .
My point of view (taken from the old Babylon project RPG) , is that Earthforce still retains the old distinctive rank systems both for "naval" (space) and "ground" (planetary) forces , but that any officer or NCO could under certain circumstances change of service branch , but still retaining his previous branch rank designations as his career advances , thus a former GROPO hoverdine pilot (2nd LT grade) that wants to become a Starfury pilot must join the fleet branch , but as his career progresses , his successive grades are 1st Lt , Captain , Major , etc . This could be the case with Major Ryan .
The black uniforms were specifically those used by the Earthforce Exploration division crews , and were specifically designed as more functional and comfortable than those of the fleet branch . Perhaps they were also meant as some sort very distinctive symbol of a certain elite status of the exploration division personnel within Earthforce (and the exploration division was clearly the most elitist command within EF) .
 
Excaliber uniforms: Right at the beginning of 'Racing the Night' (I think, not checking tapes at the moment) Gideon has a dream of when he was given the Excaliber. It is shown from his perspective so we don't see him, but at one point there is a reflection in a window and you can see that he is wearing Earthforce Uniform. The black uniforms were obviously a TNT thing.

Admirals: This rank is mentioned in season one, but then not seen again I think. Ivanova was origionally supposed to be an Admiral in SIL, but it was changed to General at the last minute. If you look carfully at the envelope she is given, you can just see the top of the A for Admiral that isn't quite covered up by the label that says 'General Ivanova'.
 

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