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How much money does b5 earn?

Fas

Regular
reading the "Why does b5 get screwed every time" post made me think.

is it much less than other sci fi or regular shows? i dont think so, not when when it got 5 seasons and six movies. i mean, earning money isnt the most basic point of capitalism?

to produce a b5 episode costs only about half a Star Trek show, and it earned a lot of of money for five years of 22 eps (otherwise it would have been cancelled). so, the question, why did we have a spin-off cancelled because someone feels theres not enough sex and nonsense in it? Why were the Sci Fi executives too lazy to check more than the "average" ratings? Why no new books? Why is it a "surprise" that the DVDs have been a success when the show already is in the first place? Why doesnt WB realize they get more prestige from having a real story for five seasons, with an ending, than a crappy show that degenerates with time? doesnt the fact that b5 has been on the air for 10 years in over a hundred countries mean anything?

maybe its just us fans who notice it, but there is something wrong in the picture. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 
Nobody here has any idea how much money B5 makes. It isn't like accountants from Warner Bros. post to this site. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

to produce a b5 episode costs only about half a Star Trek show, and it earned a lot of of money for five years of 22 eps (otherwise it would have been cancelled).

Making money and longevity have little to do with one another in television. You also have to specify who is making the money and when.

Here is how the financing for a typical network or first run syndicated one hour drama or half-hour comedy show works. (To simplify matters I'll use "network" to indicate either an actual broadcast network, a cable channel or a syndicator.)

The show is produced by a studio and sold to a network or syndication company. The show costs the studio "X" per episode to produce, and the network pays "Y" per episode to air it, usually with the right to show each episode two times during its network run. The network makes its money by selling advertising on the show. The higher the ratings (as a rule) the more they can charge for each ad, and the more money they make. The wrinkle in the ratings is something called demographics - demographics looks beyond the raw number of people who watch a show and breaks the audience down by age, gender, income, ethnicity, etc. Some demographic groups are more valuable to advertisers than others. A show that strongly appeals to people 18-49 years of age is attracting the most desired demographic out there - so a show with a 10 rating where 90% of its viewers are 18-49 is worth more to advertisers than one with a 15 rating where 90% of the viewers are 65 and over.

Generally speaking a show will stay on the air as long as it is "performing" for the network - getting good ratings and "demos" for the network and also retaining its audience. The networks would ideally like to see you tune in at 7 or 8 in the evening and never touch your remote again until after The Tonight Show, Late Night or Nightline. A show that loses a big chunk of the audience that its "lead-in" attracted is not performing. A show that loses a big chunk of its audience when the next show comes up also isn't necessarily performing. Networks try to build up reliable audiences, even if they are niche ones. A well-rated show that doesn't appeal to the people who watch the rest of a network's offerings isn't necessarily a success for that network. (This was one of B5's problems on TNT. It attracted new viewers to the network, but they rarely watched the shows that aired before and after B5.)

So it isn't just a matter of ratings, or even demos, but both are important. Networks will sometimes keep a "marginal" show on the air if it brings good reviews, awards and "prestige". They compete for Emmys almost as fiercely as they compete for ratings points. (Besides, a couple of Emmy awards can translate into more viewers because more people become aware of a show and decide to check it out.)

As long as a series is "performing" in one of these ways, and as long as the network can charge more for the commercials it airs during a show than each episode costs, chances are the show will stay on the air. That's how the network makes money. During the run of a series the cost of each episode will generally go up every year, as contract-mandated raises kick in, and the studio passes those increases along. A hit show will also mean that actors will renegotiate contracts to get a bigger piece of the larger money pie. At a certain point (usually around the 7 year mark) the cost of carrying a series will exceed the ad profit the network can make from it. This is another reason for cancelling a series.

The studio almost never makes money while a show is in production. The amount "X" that it costs them to produce each episode is almost always less than the amount "Y" the network is willing to pay to air it. (Because the network can only charge so much for ads.) Therefore the studio loses money the entire time a series is in production. The reason that studios are willing to do this is simple - reruns.

Once a show has roughly 100 episodes "in the can" there are enough for the studio to sell the show into second-run syndication. (Most stations air reruns "stripped" - 5 days a week. With 100 episodes that means you can run the show for about 5 months before you have to repeat one. With each rerun cycle you tend to lose a few viewers because people have recently seen the shows, so the series will "burn out" at some point. With fewer than 100 episodes series will burn out that much sooner, so syndicators are reluctant to carry shows below that threshold. Star Trek, in this as in many other ways, was an exception.)

Since the studio owns the series, it gets the syndication fees and the series can pretty quickly go into profit. They also get the home video money and any merchandising cash. So a successful series does very well for the studio in the long run. But a flop is a dead loss. If there aren't enough episodes for syndication, the studio loses that part of its investment not covered by the original network fees. These losses must be made good out of revenues that successful series generate. The Trek franchise quite literally save Paramount more than once because its steady revenue stream off-set losses from flop feature films and TV series.

And, as I noted, other factors can apply. Both Warner Bros. and NBC are going to lose a lot of money on Friends next year, thanks to the new cast contracts. (Each "Friend" is going to take home almost as much each week as two B5 episodes cost to film in 1998.) The studio is certain of syndication, international and home video revenues down the road, the network is willing to spend the money to keep the show as an "anchor" for its other, less expensive series. But Friends is an exception in all sorts of ways.

B5 was also an exception to these rules, but on the other end of the spectrum. PTEN was a "pseudo-network" in which Warner Bros. was a partner. The deal was that Warner Bros. would produce all the shows for the constortium, but to minimize its risks the per episode budget for each had to be equal to or less than the production cost. That's why B5 had budgets from 1/2 to 1/3 of contemporary Trek series. Warner Bros. wasn't willing to deficit finance shows that were not on a major network or syndicated in virtually every U.S. city, and which did not have built-in audiences.

So Warner Bros. broke even on the initial run of B5, and may even have made a tiny profit at the end of each season. Similarly the PTEN group made enough on the series to keep it on the air, but nobody was exactly getting rich on it. The other PTEN series fared even worse, being cancelled one by one until only B5 was left and the "network" folded. As this inevitable disaster was looming, Warner Bros. sold the rerun rights for the first 88 epiodes to TNT, but probably not for a huge amount. B5 was nothing like the "brand name" that Trek was, and never had comparable ratings. It was not as valuable a property.

And we all know the end of the story.

As noted, B5 S5 had a hard time "fitting in" at TNT. B5 fans rarely watched whatever preceded the show, and tuned out as soon as B5 was over. The same applied to the reruns. I think by early 1999 TNT was looking for an excuse to unload Crusade and picked a fight with JMS to get out of its contract.

Sci-Fi didn't pick up Rangers for a variety of reasons, as JMS has noted. A big one is that the production model that I described above is being eroded. As ad revenues have declined, production costs have risen, FCC rules changes have allowed networks to produce and own more of their own shows, and cable and satellite channels have proliferated, the economics of TV have been transformed. (Back in the 50s, when the various scandals hit the TV industry, the FCC outlawed the system whereby advertisers produced and owned TV series, and limited network ownership of production of the shows they aired. This gave rise to the studio/network relationship described above. Changes in the industry have led to FCC to repeal some of those rules, and we're just beginning to see the changes.)

Vertical ownership is also changing things. Most of the studios now own their own TV networks - a move they made to protect themselves from the new FCC rules which would have made the existing networks reluctant to buy shows from outside sources. Fox, Paramount and WB own the networks that bear their names. Disney owns ABC. Universal-Vivendi owns Sci-Fi and USA Networks.

All of these networks would now prefer to run series that they themselves produce, for fairly obvious reasons. Instead of merely making money from advertising during a series's initial run, they can profit from overseas sales, merchandising, syndication and home video sales.

Sci-Fi wanted to own a piece of a Rangers series. WB didn't want to share. That's why the actors were not signed to a series option when they made the pilot; the two sides had not been able to reach an agreement on a series deal between themselves. They decided to wait for the ratings, which would presumably give one side or the other an edge in the bargaining. But the ratings were muddled. Sci-Fi either wanted to own a piece of Rangers in order to get the long-term benefits, or they wanted a low enough per-episode licensing fee to make it worth airing without ownership. WB didn't want to share the show, and they didn't want to deficit-finance it on a low-rated cable channel. As JMS has said, if Sci-Fi had owned a piece of Rangers it probably would have gone to series, even with the marginal ratings. OTOH, if the Rangers pilot had scored big in the ratings, they probably would have bought the series even without an ownership interest in it.

But as matters stood, there was no compelling reason for them to buy the show. They will be much better off creating cheaper shows or ones based on Universal properties that their parent company already owns. (Like Battlestar Galactica, Tremors and Quantum Leap.) This is especially true given the advertising recession that has been going on since the summer of 2000 and which only got worse after September 11th.

Why is it a "surprise" that the DVDs have been a success when the show already is in the first place?

1) The show wasn't that much of a "success". See above.

2) Historically, prior to the advent of DVD, TV shows have done very poorly on home video in the United States.

Only three series/franchises in the history of U.S. television had successful VHS and/or laserdisc releases prior to 1997: The various Treks, The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits. All were "cult" shows with over 20 years of exposure and had become a part of the popular culture. B5 was none of those things. Nonetheless, Warner Bros. did attempt to release the show on both VHS and LD - the first time in its history it had ever released a live action, non-childrens', television series on home video. After initially strong sales, both released tanked and had to be cancelled.

Based on the show's near-invisibility to the mainstream audience, its fraction of the ratings that a Trek or an X-Files drew in first run and in reruns, and its total failure on VHS, Warner Bros. had every reason in the world to be dubious about its appeal on DVD. Only intense lobbying by fans got them to release two TV movies as a "test disc." That sold better than they expected it to, despite a total lack of promotion, so they were willing to invest a fair amount of money in a really good first season release - but they were still very unsure about the show's appeal. The test disc had convinced them that they might be able to sell the episodes for the kind of small, steady profit they had earned from the series. But they didn't expect people to snap the set up in Trek-like numbers - which is exactly what happened.

This message is too long as it is, so I won't discuss your other points and questions. But you should realize that it is called show business for a reason, and that economic realities, not whims or guesses about a show's popularity in the absence of evidence, is what motivates these decisions. And that B5 has been profitable for Warner Bros., but almost certainly less so than you are assuming.

Regards,

Joe
 
I always was under the impression b5 was one of those Sci Fi shows everyone knows (at least, those who are into the genre), and a very successful one. At least that´s the impression i got from, for example, Doug Netter´s comments on the DVD. of course nothing like Star Trek, but well, im sure a lot of casual people who know Star Trek but have never heard of Babylon 5 are people who stay out of Sci Fi anyway.

Anyways thanks a lot for taking the time to write the message, it certainly put some things into perspective. Specially on the entire Rangers issue.
 
Very interesting post Joe /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


The studio almost never makes money while a show is in production. The amount "X" that it costs them to produce each episode is almost always less than the amount "Y" the network is willing to pay to air it.
But if "network" itself and not "studio" will produce a series or film. I quess industry term is "independent films/series".And i quess Farscape falls into this category. Will then "network" get all the reruns, DVD and other merchandise money?

If yes, then why "networks" dont produce itself?
Maybe i'm missing some obvious point etc.
 
I know that season2 (and maybe others too) finals premiered in UK rather than in US. Does anyone know why?

I quess british company "buyed" this right but maybe there are other reasons?
 
Here is what I think Babylon 5 and what sci-fi needs in general:

1. The economy needs to start moving again so networks would be more inclined to spend money on speculative/potential moneymaking projects.
2. People need to get more interested/excited about space in general. This could have the potential of helping sci-fi shows and also could help kick start NASA’s mission to Mars.
3. Find a source of life outside Earth. This could be fossils’ found on Mars, radio transmissions captured by Earth based resources or other discoveries that would indicate life exists outside Earth.
4. Some type of threshold event that will wake people up and make them excited about space and all the wonders that are out there.

Bottom line if people are not excited about something, no one is going to spend money on it.


Cerberus
 
I always was under the impression b5 was one of those Sci Fi shows everyone knows (at least, those who are into the genre),

When you limit yourself to "those who are into the genre", then B5 is well known. The point is, that still isn't very well known by the standards of large studios like Warner Bros. When you compare that "everybody who is into the SF genre knows B5" to the potential market of people who are at least somewhat familiar with shows like Friends or Mad About You, or Trek (which even avowed sci-fi-phobes are familiar with) ........ well, the number of people familiar with B5 looks relatively small.
 
joe, you sure go to great lengths to mod this forum..not only do you mod, you inform... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I always was under the impression b5 was one of those Sci Fi shows everyone knows (at least, those who are into the genre)

Although awareness of the show has increased over the years, even today a surprising number of SF fans are only dimly aware of B5. Fans who primarily read SF, and tend to look down on genre TV and film, often assume that it is another Star Trek spin-off. Many Trek fans tend to assume that it is crap and don't watch it. Stop 20 random people at an SF convention and I'll bet no more than 3 of them will know what a Minbari or a Narn are. Stop 20 random people on the street in any mid-sized U.S. city and at least 10 of them will have a least a rough idea what a Klingon and a Vulcan are. People who have never watched The X-Files recognize the names Scully and Mulder, and know that they have something to do with UFOs. Practically nobody knows who John Sheridan or Susan Ivanova are, and this includes most SF fans who are not also specifically B5 fans. As much as it was "the little show that could", and as much as we all love it, B5 not that big a fish even in the tiny SF pond. In the larger world it is something of a "stealth show."

(In fact, I've seen reviews of the DVD by folks who had never heard of the show or were only vaguely aware of it, some of whom believed it had something to do with Star Trek until they actually watched a few episodes.)

The good news is that the DVDs seem to be buidling the audience. People who had heard of the show, but found it confusing to come in during that later seasons, or who deliberately chose not to, are now discovering the show at their own pace on disc. (I did the same thing with The X-Files - which is really a good show, Sass, at least through the first three seasons, and if you watch them all in the correct order. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Will then "network" get all the reruns, DVD and other merchandise money?

Assuming the network produces the show, yes. They own all the rights. In practice it tends to be more complicated than that, because what you really have are different divisions of the same company (or different companies that are both owned by the same corporate parent.) So Paramount Studios may still get all the money from Enterprise, but UPN may get the show for a cheaper per episode license fee in exchange for a promise to keep the show on the air for the full seven years - a deal no independent network would ever tolerate. In the end parent company Viacom makes all the money anyway, after expenses.

I know that season2 (and maybe others too) finals premiered in UK rather than in US. Does anyone know why?

That was purely a matter of the way PTEN chose to compete in the U.S. television market. They preferred to save blocks of new shows for the ratings "sweeps" periods, which are what set their advertising rates. So they alternated blocks of new shows and reruns throughout the year to maximize their ratings, showing the last several episodes of each season well after the rest, just before starting the following season. This was months after the episodes themselves were completed.

Also, because PTEN was not a true national network, each PTEN station could air the show in whatever timeslot it wanted. The show ran on Wednesdays between 6 and 7 PM in most markets, but where I watched it ran Saturdays at 7 - so my New York friend who introduced me to the series was forbidden to call me to discuss the episode he had watched on Wednesday night until after I'd seen it on Saturday. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(This was one reason why JMS was able to substitute "Deconstruction" for "Sleeping in Light" at the end of S4. The last batch of S4 episodes hadn't aired yet on either side of the Atlantic, so they shot "Deconstruction" as the first episode under the 22 show TNT deal and rushed it to air.) Whoever was airing the show in the U.K. followed a different schedule, so the shows were provided to them when they were ready, without reference to the U.S. schedule. This led to some major spoiler concerns on the 'net during the series first run, because episodes often aired in the U.K. before they were shown here.

was that a new record joe?

I certainly hope so, because if it isn't that means I actually wrote something longer than that at some point. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Joe
 
I too appreciate your posts Joe. They are informative and insightful. However, this amazing post has only reinforced my suspicions about you. No normal fan could have the knowledge of the industry and genre like you do. Are you sure you are not a B5 insider hiding behind a pseudo-name? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
No normal fan could have the knowledge of the industry and genre like you do. Are you sure you are not a B5 insider hiding behind a pseudo-name?

heh, i thought the same thing too. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif i remember JMS talking on the commentary about how he came online mostly as an antidote for all the misinformation on "how and why tv is made". maybe it´s that. or maybe you are right on your other theory /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Damn,

That was one of the longest Joe D posts I have ever seen! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Practically nobody knows who John Sheridan or Susan Ivanova are, and this includes most SF fans who are not also specifically B5 fans.

Yet in a recent SFX magazine poll in the UK, Sheridan, Ivanova, Bester, G'Kar and Londo all appeared in the top 100 characters in Sci Fi /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
British SF fandom is much smaller, more vocal, and more intimately connected than its U.S. counterpart. And B5 was always more popular in the U.K. than in the U.S. at least on a per capita basis - witness its prominence at British SF cons when U.S. cons were still dominated by Trek and Star Wars and the success of the show on VHS. (The early release of the VHS tapes, starting pretty much as each season ended, was also a major factor in spreading the word about the show. The VHS tapes didn't arrive in the U.S. until the show had already been out of production for over a year, so they didn't perform the same function of letting new fans "catch up" before the start of each new broadcast season.)

Word about a show like B5 can spread more or less through osmosis in a relatively small country where so much of fandom is concentrated around a single city. The fact that the cast and crew made appearances there also helped spread the word. Appear at a con in or around London and you've gone a long way towards making every SF fan in the British Isles aware of your show. Appear at a con in San Diego, or Chicago or Atlanta and your appearance may not even be reported in fanzines and websites that cater to SF fans in New York and Boston. It is all very different over here.

Regards,

Joe
 
Which also explains why the VHS tapes did so much better over here, and why we got all 5 seasons and the movies released. I do wonder, though, how that will impact sales of DVDs on this side of the Atlantic. So many fans already have the VHS tapes, will they bother to buy the DVDs too?
 
So many fans already have the VHS tapes, will they bother to buy the DVDs too?

I suspect many will. Some of those tapes are almost ten years old, and tapes wear out. That's also a long time to "amortize the expense." /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Granted a full set of tapes would be pricey, but the cost would be spread out over several years for most fans - except those who recently snapped up the discontinued tapes dirt cheap. So a lot of folks will doubtless feel they've had their money's worth out of them.

Also only the films were ever released in widescreen, the tapes had nothing in the way of supplments, and DVDs are better quality, more durable and take up a lot less space. A season's worth of VHS tapes takes up a couple of feet on a shelf. Each DVD season takes up a few inches.

All-in-all I think there are enough pluses to the DVDs that a lot of fans who already own the tapes will buy the discs. (In fact, I argued that this would be the case in letters to Warner Bros. at the time they were first releasing the show on VHS in the States - that the only way to get people who had the tapes and/or LDs to buy the DVDs would be to provide extra features and content not available on the earlier releases, and at an attractive price point.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Another thing that will help with the DVDs is that many people are just now buying their DVD players. Suddenly video tapes have almost disappeared but people who already have most of their favorite shows on tape will be looking for something new in the DVD line.

Not everybody can afford to replace all their video tapes when they still have a VCR.
 
I certainly hope so, because if it isn't that means I actually wrote something longer than that at some point.

woah...

i definately got my moneys worth out of my vids, some of them only cost me 99p from Home Bargains!
 

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