New desktop picture at scifi.com

drakh · Nov 21, 2001

Scifi.com has put a new desktop picture up in their gallery section. It seems to be of the Liandra entering a jump gate, though the quality is disapointing.

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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?"
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited November 21, 2001).]

Demonn · Nov 21, 2001

I want a nice shot of the Liandra a really nice one, the jump point looks great though. I wonder if they changed the way hyperspace looks as well.

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

solaris5 · Nov 21, 2001

Dissapointing is a weak word. I prefer elephant excrement. I mean, even a dead mouse with a digi-cam can do better....
First one is good though, with the cast all together...

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I am Yu Lau! I am nobody's bitch! You are mine!

channe · Nov 21, 2001

I liked the first one until I realized it was a bad Photoshop composite. Everyone's disproportionate to one another...

...ah well, I still can't wait for the show, pictures nonwithstanding.

And I really like the new jumpgate look, for some odd reason.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

LightNZ · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
I want a nice shot of the Liandra a really nice one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too, hopefully that will be the next background picture!!

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"Will you follow me into fire? Into storm, into darkness, into death?!

Kribu · Nov 22, 2001

Even though I have to agree that the quality of the newest pic isn't too marvellous... it has still replaced that crystal city on my desktop. For the time being, at least.

I love the colours. And the pic itself, although fuzzy, has something... nostalgic about it. Not that I know how something from the far future - from a movie I haven't even seen yet - can feel nostalgic.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
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drakh · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
I wonder if they changed the way hyperspace looks as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>According to the Ain't It Cool News review, they have.

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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?"
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

channe · Nov 22, 2001

It may be wearing a new face, Kribu...

...but it's still Babylon 5!

*sniff*

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

B5_Obsessed · Nov 24, 2001

I like the picture. It has the amount of blur you'd expect in real life if you took a shot against a bright background.

Nice composition too. They know we want to see the Liandra, so they give us little more than a mysterious sillouette.

And yep, they changed the jumpgate effect a third time. Let the continuity griping begin!

And the jumpgate itself looks different, which means it could be an older or more exotic design from some alien race, off the beaten path.

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This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
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Hmmmm.
You never heard that."

whitestar90 · Nov 24, 2001

I would like to see some action scenes but they are good pictures of the cast....

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Adam · Nov 25, 2001

Heheh Man the B5: A2 MOD team will be pissed to see this. They makeing a jumpgate for the MOD as of now.

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Webmaster for B5:A2
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**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I mean, even a dead mouse with a digi-cam can do better...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFL, although I very much doubt it.

Useless nitpicking about jump effects follows.

Let them tweak it as much as they like. The present one looks nice, but theoretically it could be improved. I have nothing against changes in appearance.

I have noticed that the jump gate effect no longer has a "red shift" or "blue shift" which used to show whether a ship was arriving our departing. I considered the old effect a nice touch (for storytelling reasons) although scientifically dubious. You see, the same logic was applied to both fixed jump gates and ship-generated jump points.

In case of a ship, red and blue shift could be explained: it would depend on the movement (towards or away) or location of the ship (hyperspace or normal space). A jump point might even change color as the ship passes through. This serves storytelling purposes by making it evident if a ship is coming or going.

Unlike a a ship, a gate is not moving towards or away from its jump point. A gate is a fixed installation always located in normal space. As the jump point is open in both ways, the gate effect should be neutral white (just like it currently is, which is why I like it).

I don't recall seeing any ship-generated jump points in the trailer, so I can't nibble on their appearance.

All I can say is that the current one looks good enough.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 25, 2001).]

KoshN · Nov 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
ROTFL, although I very much doubt it.

Useless nitpicking about jump effects follows.

Let them tweak it as much as they like.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Radically changing the look of the jumpgate/jump point funnel, without ever addressing the story reason for the change, would indicate to me that the writer doesn't care if his story looks consistent with itself, and has no respect for the viewers. It would be like JMS was saying "They're just fen. They'll lap it up." I hope we don't ever see this come to pass.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
The present one looks nice, but theoretically it could be improved. I have nothing against changes in appearance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was wrong with the old B5 spiral effect, or the later A Call to Arms/Crusade enhanced spiral effect? Please read whole response before you reply.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
I have noticed that the jump gate effect no longer has a "red shift" or "blue shift" which used to show whether a ship was arriving our departing. I considered the old effect a nice touch (for storytelling reasons) although scientifically dubious. You see, the same logic was applied to both fixed jump gates and ship-generated jump points.

In case of a ship, red and blue shift could be explained: it would depend on the movement (towards or away) or location of the ship (hyperspace or normal space). A jump point might even change color as the ship passes through. This serves storytelling purposes by making it evident if a ship is coming or going.

Unlike a a ship, a gate is not moving towards or away from its jump point. A gate is a fixed installation always located in normal space. As the jump point is open in both ways, the gate effect should be neutral white (just like it currently is, which is why I like it).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There could be some other reason for the color difference between hyperspace entry and exit funnels. It doesn't have to be a doppler effect. Also, JMS doesn't have to explain it in scientific terms. However, if the effect is radically changed (e.g. funnel pattern and color), it does need to be explained. JMS could avoid the whole mess, by not radically changing the effect.

I think they should just pick a method of showing a jumpgate/jump point funnel (e.g. amber entry color/blue exit color, and stick with it. I have no problem with the extra flashes shown in A Call to Arms/Crusade, but changing both the spiral nature, and of the color of the funnels is too much.

That said, there could be some other reason for the change in the look of the effect we see in ...
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/gallery/desktops/B5LR03_1152x870.jpg

How about alien influence? Maybe "The Hand" did something to this particular vortex.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
I don't recall seeing any ship-generated jump points in the trailer, so I can't nibble on their appearance.

All I can say is that the current one looks good enough.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If, by "the current ones" you mean the A Call to Arms/Crusade jumpgate/jump point funnels, I agree. I see no reason to change them. They look just fine.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Kribu · Nov 25, 2001

I have to say I far preferred the look of the jumpgates in B5 over that in ACtA and Crusade.

The jumpgate effect in ACtA/Crusade looked... somehow forced to me. It was a bit distracting, as in it actually made me notice the jumpgate effect instead of the rest of the scene/action.

I guess I might have got used to it, had I had the chance. But I didn't like it as much as the old jumpgate look.

From the little I've seen of B5LR so far, I kind of prefer that jumpgate effect to the one in ACtA/Crusade. I do agree though that it's not the greatest idea to keep changing something like that (something that's very much on the foreground in the show, not just a tiny detail) without an explanation.

Then again, we didn't get an explanation in ACtA/Crusade either, did we? Other than TNT's wish to set the new show apart from its predecessor visually, did anyone in the show offer any reason why the gates looked different?

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 25, 2001

On some matters I fully agree with you (KoshN -- to avoid confusion as Kribu managed post before me and I'm still reading her post).

Significantly changing the appearance of something well-known is usually accepted better if you provide some insight... to why the change was made. As I have yet to encounter such info, all possibilities remain open:

1. There is no change. This jump point is an exception.
2. The change is intentional, the reason has not reached us.
3. The change was due to some sort of technical limitations.

It is intriguing. As I consider the new effect quite acceptable (especially if it would be different in case of ships) I would prefer options one or two. The third is unlikely as I'm sure that the capabilities of CGI graphics have only inreased since the last B5/Crusade episodes.

Regarding your guess...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Maybe the jump gate is indeed very old and simply different?

Maybe "the Hand" can use or modify ordinary jump gates to enter/exit their home dimension? Such an ability would indeed make them a serious threat. Not only a traffic hazard, but a possibly very capable attacker.

On other thoughts... is the ship coming out or going into the gate? It may be the good old "bonehead manouver" with a new look.</td></tr></table>

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 25, 2001).]

KoshN · Nov 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Then again, we didn't get an explanation in ACtA/Crusade either, did we? Other than TNT's wish to set the new show apart from its predecessor visually, did anyone in the show offer any reason why the gates looked different?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They just added some flashiness to the B5 vortex. The spiral nature of the vortex, and the vortex colors were the same. To me the difference between the B5 and the ACtA/Crusade vortex effects was not a huge difference. They just spiced it up a bit. No big deal.

I'm hoping that the picture that up at the Rangers site is just an aberration, and that the normal vortex effects will be the same as those seen in ACtA/Crusade. To go back to original B5 vortex effects, after having seen ACtA/Crusade would not be a good idea, IMHO.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Nov 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Significantly changing the appearance of something well-known is usually accepted better if you provide some insight... to why the change was made. As I have yet to encounter such info, all possibilities remain open:

1. There is no change. This jump point is an exception.
2. The change is intentional, the reason has not reached us.
3. The change was due to some sort of technical limitations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm hoping for #1, above.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited November 25, 2001).]

KoshN · Nov 29, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WombatControl:
Actually, there is a reason why the jump points look different for Rangers. ACtA and B5 both used LightWave for their CGI effects. Rangers uses Maya, which doesn't have the same procedural textures as LightWave. (Procedural textures are textures that are not actual images, but mathematical patterns. Each rendering package has different kinds of procedural textures.) Things like the jump points and Shadow skin need those LightWave specific procedural textures. It would take a lot of tweaking to get the effect exactly correct - and considering the time they had to finish the effects, it's better to do something new. After all, SCIFI wants a new audience to come to B5 through Rangers, and they aren't going to know what a jump point looks like anyway.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the look of the show is a slave to the software and effects company being used??? That's ludicrous! The show should not change due to going to a different effects house. There should be specifications that the effects house has to meet. JMS should draw up these specifications, and the effects house should meet them. If they can't, another effects house should be used.

Who's the "customer" here anyway? The effects house should serve the customer, bend to the customer's requirements. The customer should provide specs that ensure consistency with what's been done before, or explain the changes in story terms. Lightwave is still being made, and it's continually being improved. To thrown in yet another inconsistency, just because the effects house doesn't use Lightwave is NUTS.

If true, this disregard for consistency, IMHO, reflects badly on JMS. Man, this pisses me off.

It sounds like they went around begging for somebody to do the CGI on the cheap, and the effects house bullied 'em into taking what they could easily provide. I smell WHV penny pinchers here.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

drakh · Nov 29, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
If true, this disregard for consistency, IMHO, reflects badly on JMS. Man, this pisses me off.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jms has always been open to tweaking stuff that could have been done better. If he hadn't, we'd still have, say, the hideous phaser rejects from the pilot. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It sounds like they went around begging for somebody to do the CGI on the cheap, and the effects house bullied 'em into taking what they could easily provide. I smell WHV penny pinchers here.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Based on what? The effects in the trailer? The fact that GVFX is used by a fairly expensive show like Stargate?

Persanlly, I had my own problems with Netter Digital, and I'm glad we're getting fresh take on the CGI. As long as I can recognize the various ships and devices I don't mind it looking different (unless the new style is noticably inferior that is). I'm far more concerned with the quality of the animation and angling/framing of the shots. And I'll just have to wait until I've seen the movie before making coments on that.

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"When a spark goes online, there's great joy --
When one's extinguished, the universe weeps." (audio)
-- Rhinox, "The Spark", Beast Wars

drakh@spamcop.net

KoshN · Nov 29, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
If true, this disregard for consistency, IMHO, reflects badly on JMS. Man, this pisses me off.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Jms has always been open to tweaking stuff that could have been done better. If he hadn't, we'd still have, say, the hideous phaser rejects from the pilot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The change from the hideous phaser rejects in the pilot to the PPGs of Season 1, can hardly be called tweaks. That's a wholesale change, and that's not unusual when going from a pilot to a series, especially given the amount of time that elapsed between the pilot and the series. However, we're now dealing with effects established in a mature series, 116 hours of B5 and 13 hours of Crusade. They were tweaked for Crusade, without any story explanation, and that's no big deal. That was just a tweak. The new pilot and the new series will be taking place in the same universe as B5 and Crusade. So, you would think that tweaking would not be as necessary, and certainly wholesale changes wouldn't be necessary (not if you want to have any sort of visual continuity from B5 to Crusade to B5:LotR).

Note: It's entirely possible that the jumpgate effect we see in the pic at SciFi.com might be an aberration, or maybe what they look like when the new aliens jump to and from hyperspace. It's possible that when the Liandra jumps to and from hyperspace, it will be the effect we saw in Crusade. In the pic, we see the Liandra in front of a jumpgate, but maybe it's not jumping. Maybe it's waiting for something that is jumping.

If all ships in B5:LotR jump with the effect we see in the Sci-Fi.com picture, and it's not explained as a part of the story, it's a discontinuity and a bad idea, and smacks of Trek-style storytelling (i.e. make it up as you go along, with no overall plan).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It sounds like they went around begging for somebody to do the CGI on the cheap, and the effects house bullied 'em into taking what they could easily provide. I smell WHV penny pinchers here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Based on what? The effects in the trailer?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based upon the title of this thread, and the trailer. See also my paragraph that begins with "Note" above.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
The fact that GVFX is used by a fairly expensive show like Stargate?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't matter. I don't care if the effects house has done hundreds of Academy Award winning movies and Emmy winning TV series. They should still try to minimize discontinuity. If the effects house is dictating the look of the show, somebody's got the cart before the horse. JMS is boss, not the effects house. JMS dictates the direction and look of the show, and should be striving for continuity with respect to the 129 hours of TV that have gone before. I've got no problem with tweaks. It's wholesale changes without any story justification that piss me off. The latter would show a complete lack of respect for the fans.

But, like I said above, this may just be an aberration that has a story explanation. If, however, the different software is dictating wholesale changes in the look of the show, the look we've gotten used to over the course of 5.5 years and 129 hours of TV, it's just wrong. JMS/Warner Bros. are the customer and the boss. The effects house is the employee. If JMS says for them to make it look like B5/Crusade, that's what they should do. If JMS just assumed they could make it look like what we had for Crusade, and then they didn't, he should request that they make the necessary changes to establish relative continuity. If they couldn't do that, a new effects house should be found. Ron Thornton is still doing this stuff, isn't he? There are still people out there using Lightwave, are there not?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Persanlly, I had my own problems with Netter Digital, and I'm glad we're getting fresh take on the CGI. As long as I can recognize the various ships and devices I don't mind it looking different (unless the new style is noticably inferior that is). I'm far more concerned with the quality of the animation and angling/framing of the shots. And I'll just have to wait until I've seen the movie before making coments on that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not get somebody who would be more compatible from a software standpoint? e.g. Ron Thornton.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited November 29, 2001).]

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