Confessions and Lamentations similarity to BSG/Spoiler

BSG spoiler for 3rd season who hadn't see the episode yet...














Just curious...I realize I'm way behind/ahead when it comes to this episode but I just thought I would add to the conversation to Helo's decision to sabotaging the mission to wipe out all the cylons. I know that this conversation was also posted by myself on the non B5 board but I wanted to comment on Confessions and Lamentations being I just saw that episode on my own again tonight.

I was watching that episode and I noticed a lot of you guys commented that you really felt emotional and thought that the episode was rated at least a B for most of you. Let me honestly pose this question for all you BSG fans that are here. Oviously C and L is one of the hardest episodes to watch the fact the Markabs have basically been wiped out and bittersweet because it's the 2nd episode that Delenn is really starting to show her affection for Sheridan. But the question is that at the end of the episode seeing all the Markabs dead with the music underscoring the music from volume 2 soundtrack can all you BSG fans who though Helo was an idiot for what he did could you honestly really believe you would feel the same way if you saw every cylon that we know already all lying down dead in that same room? I honestly don't think I could stand to see a repeat of this episode in BSG. I realize in some ways it's quite different because the cylons are considered the bad guys but honestly there are truely 2 cylons that are considered villians.. Doral and Brother Cavil. The other 5 cylon models before we found out the final 4 of the 5 still have at some point during the first 3 seasons are actually still trying to figure out themselves.

Example...Boomer now becoming Athena...Leoben even though treated Starbuck like crap during the occupation isn't a true villian...cylon Simon openly gave Adama some vital information regarding the disease and Baltar plus of course you have both cylon models #3 and #6 who have at some point thoughout the series have done some good even trying to find God and humanity.

Seriously Watching all of the 3rd season now could you honestly stomach seeing all 7 cylon models dead like the episode C and L from B5?...

Not Me 100%

Alex

Leaving aside the specific question you're asking, you're conveniently overlooking quite a lot when you decide the majority of the 7 models are not particularly bad guys.

They were all directly behind the deaths of billions and the attempted total genocide of the human race in the miniseries, and then more recently were all responsible for ordering the summary executions of hundreds of suspects without trial when they were ruling over the survivors in New Caprica. They even forced Baltar to issue the order at gunpoint to try and assuage their feelings of guilt over what they knew was a morally reprehensible act. Before you start debating whether Helo was in the right or not, I think you should take hat into account.

raw_bean said:

Leaving aside the specific question you're asking, you're conveniently overlooking quite a lot when you decide the majority of the 7 models are not particularly bad guys.

They were all directly behind the deaths of billions and the attempted total genocide of the human race in the miniseries, and then more recently were all responsible for ordering the summary executions of hundreds of suspects without trial when they were ruling over the survivors in New Caprica. They even forced Baltar to issue the order at gunpoint to try and assuage their feelings of guilt over what they knew was a morally reprehensible act. Before you start debating whether Helo was in the right or not, I think you should take hat into account.

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Your absolutely right about the cylons causing genocide to the humans but if you have been watching the entire season you have noticed that the cylons have been becoming more self aware. ..Every movie and tv show has a true villian. When you think Matrix the sentinals aren't the true villians..Agent Smith is. Babylon 5..yea sure we can blame Londo but during the 5 seasons you have to blame primarily 3 people...the drakh, Bester and Morden..sure we can blame the shadows but they left..Morden died before the shadows left. The drakh continued to keep Londo from doing anything with the Keeper and having Centauri Prime booby trapped. Bester the kain villian when it comes to Psi Corps going after anyone and killing all the telepaths which wasn't concluded during the 5 year series but in the Psi Corps Trilogy.

I'm not saying you but as a people as a whole need to stop blaming an entire race just because most of them are villians. Do we blame Hugh in the next Generation and kill the Borg off because of Lore..No.

What am I overlooking..we kill every cylon..Show is over..period. let's just take the easy way out and just kill kill kill. Go back and watch the end of Confessions and Lamentations and watch the last couple minutes when Dr Franklin points out that society hasn't changed after the bar tender made a joke. JMS was trying to convey that we as humans need to remember that it's a gift of life to be alive and that part of being human is not to wipe out an entire race by cheating. Anyone who cheats and kills off a person or an entire race without facing them head on to me is a coward..Look at the movie Scarface..had that assassin shot Tony Montana face to face instead of in the back you know that Tony would have stayed alive.

Now watching the entire 3rd season of BSG we find out that Col. Tigh is a cylon so what we go ahead and shoot him too? Honestly can you really define a cylon? And who's to say that if Tigh had been on the Cylon Baystar that he would have contracted the disease as well.

That's why Doral is considered one of the true villians in the show. Cylon model #3 wasn't a true villian because her line has been temporarily shut down by Brother Cavil's cylon model. It wasn't up to #3 to be shut down..she had no choice because Cavil is the true villian. Yes 3/4 of the show so far #3 model has done a lot of harm but majority of the last 1/4 episodes model #3 has been discovering humanity and finding God by seeing the final 5 cylons. The Cylons are slowly becoming flawed characters little by little instead of just being one dimensional. Gina's version of #6 is even a flawed cylon she went nuts after being tortured by the Pegasus crew (is she still a villain--probably because she purposely led the cylons to finding New Caprica)However, Caprica #6 is in love with Baltar and she helped Athena to get her baby back to Galactica.

So am I still overlooking something here...I just can't figure out what I'm overlooking to pose a question regarding a similarity to Babylon 5 episode C and L.

Well if you ask me, the key to all this is Adama's statement in his speech:

You know, when we fought the Cylons, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question "Why?" Why are we as a people worth saving? We still commit murder because of greed and spite, jealousy, and we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything that we've done, like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life. And when that life turned against us, we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things that you've created. Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore.

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It's about facing what you've done. If the humans wipe out the cylons, all they do is succeed in not facing up to the past and not having to take responsibility for their actions as a race.

Humanity is in denial, it has created a race of mechanoids that has become self aware and now claims the rights of a sentient being... the right to be treated equal.

If it happened in our world, it would raise all sorts of questions about ethics... and as long as the humans merely regard the cylons as toasters... they can continue to justify their hatred of the cylons. If they seriously considered that the cylons were beings on a par with them... it might force them to open up a dialogue.

The whole series has been like a transition process that demonstrates the slowly changing attitudes.

I'm not excusing the cylons... they are a problem, al of their own. I am saying that humanity has to ask itself some serious questions in regard to how they regard the cylons.

I did say I wasn't getting into the debate over whether or not the cylons deserved the same extermination they attempted on humanity, and I'm not even getting into all your apples and oranges comparisons to B5 situations.

There has been no indication in BSG that any model of cylons as a whole were against the nuking of the civillian populations of the 12 colonies, or that they weren't 'self-aware' enough to comprehend their actions when they did so. There have been a few occasions where certain individual cylons disagree with the general consensus of their model, including a couple who showed some remorse afterwards, but again no indication of any individual from any model who had any reservations - at the time - about the nuclear holocaust they instigated in the mini-series. Given how easy it was for D'Anna to re-program centurions and engage the downloading equipment to kill herself over and over without the others knowing about it for ages, how hard would it have been for a cylon protester to warn the 12 colonies about the upcoming attack, by sending a signal or re-programming a raider to carry one to them? Even if the signal was treated as suspect or the raider was shot down it would have provided some increased alertness before the up-coming attack. I suppose it's just about possible that any dissenting 'nice' cylons were all boxed before the attack, but we've no reason to suspect that this happened.

Look, I'm not advocating genocide in the BSG universe, and I like the cylons just as much as you. I think they're interesting, flawed, even sometimes sympathetic characters, but stop trying to invent excuses and justifications for them: they're the bad guys of the story, with only a few exceptions. All of them are responsible, to varying degrees, of horrific acts.

The great thing about BSG is, so are half of the 'heroes'!

But joking aside the vast majority of the cylons are pretty nasty pieces of work, and you overlooked a great many examples of this and only listed the less unsavoury aspects of their characters. Stop being a cylon apologist! They're really cool baddies!

EDIT: Also, here's a question for you. You said:

"Seriously Watching all of the 3rd season now could you honestly stomach seeing all 7 cylon models dead like the episode C and L from B5?...

Not Me 100%"

Lets say it was an either/or choice between the cylons and the 12 colonies (which for all the characters knew at the time of the episode in question, it was) which would upset you more? Seeing all the cylons of all 7 models dead, or seeing all the humans of the 12 colonies dead, the 40000 survivors on top of the tens of billions already nuked?

To be honest, it always seemed unlikely to me that the virus would wipe out the entire cylon race anyway, so the better comparison with the emotional punch of C an L from B5 for me was the bombing of the colonies in the mini-series. Would C and L been anywhere near as affecting if it happened late in S4 of B5, and we'd found out that the Markab (instead of the Drakh) were the ones building and using the Shadow planet killer? I bet it wouldn't.

First of all thank you Galahad for conveying the point I was trying to get at. What Galahad had stated was basically what I was stating in my own words.

Unfortunately, raw bean it appears to you that my opinion is wrong and your right so I guess there is no point of trying to continue this conversation with you... but I guess that's the way society has taught us today that no matter what someone's opinion is that they are wrong. Please read Galahad's message and either you will undertand it or not but I'm going to continue to agree to disagree.

Nonetheless, my question wasn't a debate of whether I'm wrong or your right..it was a question for people to respond in question what everyone was talking about on the BSG side of this board. I was using a comparison for anyone to respond with Why? KoshN told me that if I have an opinion that I should state why with that opinion. At first I was going to get upset but KoshN made a valid point and now that I'm answering why with my opinion it seems I can't win no matter what.

But any event I would still like more responses to my question in hand. Whether you agree with me or not doesn't matter but what does matter is that I said the excact same thing Galahad did and so for you (raw bean) to accuse me of making excuses for the cylons is absolutely rediculous. I'm not making excuses for cylons but I really would like you to send this whole thread to RDM yourself and I bet he will disagree with your point of view not as an opinion but more or less that you think that the world centers around you but no one else.

I did my part by answering the topic of Why? I'm still waiting for your why to your opinion. I never said you were making excuses or not making excuses for the cylons so why in the world you would you accuse me of that? But that's the way we are raised as humans isn't it? We get our butt kicked so we look for ways to play God and cheat our way out of terrible situations. The Cylons are evolving and I would rather die facing the cylons head on then be a coward and play God by erradicating an entire race that we were directly responsible of creating in the first place. My question wasn't directly related to how we would react when Caprica and the other 11 colonies were be obliterated but if you go back to the top of my thread you will see that the question in hand was directly related to the middle first half of the 3rd season when Helo sabotaged the entire mission of wiping the cylons out.

Ok, first of all I could just as easily say:

Unfortunately, Babylon5fan07 it appears to you that my opinion is wrong and you're right so I guess there is no point in trying to continue this conversation with you.

(Spelling fixed because I'm an anal retentive, not intended as a jibe at you.)

There's no need to get up on a high horse because I disputed some of your thinking (remember that all along I haven't actually diagreed with you that wiping out the cylons is wrong.) Not everyone in life will agree with you, that's just the way it goes and it's nothing personal that you should take offense at. Stop being so defensive and and sensitive, and please don't try and pretend I'm the only one who refuses to change his mind here: you're being just as stubborn in your own opinions.

And there's no need to resort to insulting accusations about me 'thinking the world revolves around me and no-one else' and such like. I've been polite and friendly, and if anyone's behaving like that it's you: getting upset just because someone politely disagrees with you.

Galahad, some good points and a very good Adama quote there, but I think you're distorting one thing slightly:

"Humanity is in denial, it has created a race of mechanoids that has become self aware and now claims the rights of a sentient being... the right to be treated equal."

Watch the mini-series again. At the beginning of that, the cylons had their own civilisation, unmolested (bar the odd covert spying mission like the one Adama took part in with the Valkyrie) and fully recognised by the 12 Colonies. There was an armistice agreed between the two civilisations following the first war, and pre-determined lines of diplomatic communication (spurned by the cylons though they were.) The humans, in deed if not in thought, were absolutely treating the cylons like sentient beings with their own territory and a legitimate government. Hell, the Palestinian people here on Earth would kill (indeed, are killing in some cases) for that.

Let me stress this next part:

It was the cylons who completely ignored a peace treaty and launched an unprovoked attack, without any warning or declaration of war or hostilities or any communication with the colonies government at all, and even after swiftly immobilising virtually the entire Colonies millitary and effectively conquering all the colonies, proceeded to exterminate the human civilian populations without warning or mercy. Those who survived the attack were treated as laboratory animals to be used in breeding experiments. Many people on Earth don't even feel that that kind of thing is acceptable with rodents.

It seems to me that they cylons were the ones treating their enemies as disposable pests with no right to govern themselves or even a right to life, not the humans.

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My position: The humans attempt to wipe out all the cylons wasn't morally justifiable, no. Neither was the cylon's attempt to do the same to the humans in the mini-series. I don't see how you can get in such a state over the failed (and to my mind, never likely to succeed) attempt at genocide the humans made and yet ignore the far more effective (nearly successful) attempt the cylons made earlier. You guys really need to re-watch the mini-series.

I may respond in another post later but for now, I think its worth saying that the emphasis shift from B5 to BSG should in my opinion, require this thread to be moved to the other tv prog forum.

That had occurred to me, too. I was considering stating that that was going to be my final post on the matter because I wasn't going to carry on discussing BSG in a B5 forum, but thought that would sound huffy and stuck-up.

To the moderators and board host go ahead and move this thread to the BSG side of the board..I initially wanted this to be a B5 comparsison to BSG conversation but I guess it took a life of it's own. No hard feelings raw bean..although I still disagree with you.

Babylon5fan07 said:

No hard feelings raw bean..although I still disagree with you.

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Ditto. :^)

Hi there guys, I was just browsing this forum on which i stumbled by accident from the IMDB board on babylon 5, and noticed this interesting discussion about...moral.
So I had to join this wonderfull community and speak up on some things .
First of all excuse me on my spelling or grammar, and for that matter sentence construction, cause English is definitlly not my native language nor is a language that is often spoken in my country, but then again all communications these days are done by this language and therefor one can try to communicate on it as much as one is able to do that. (we are not all born linguists )
On the matter:
The question is beyond B5 and BSG universe, cause it simply is a question of OUR universe, and i see those both universes a derivation of what we experience and what we live (and ofc thats what they are ), therefor i must agree with raw_bean (from whom i expect to correct my spelling mistakes ) that how you see and feel about the extinction of one race/species/life form/ is how you emotionally connect to that species.
Yes, the dying of the whole race in B5 was one emotinal scene which in most of us probably brought tears, and yes if we knew as a prior that the dying race was probably "guilty" of terrible crimes against other races we most certainly wouldnt react in that way.
We are emotinal beeings, our reasoning is usually a prisoner of our emotions, we can not escape it, we can try doing that, but I'm sure most of you wouldn't want that. Hell as much as Vulcans are cool i most ceratainlly wouldn't wanna be one.
So as emotinal beeings we react as emotinal beeings, therefor the extinction of the Cylons (which was ofc impossible cause that would mean an end to the series ) wouldn't strike the same cord as the extinction of the Marcabs or for that matter the extinction of all the bugs that crowl in you apartment. It's how we emote to the target that makes our moral. And if you ask me Helo is probably the kind a person that I'm yet to meet in my life, cause I still havent met a person like that, maybe that makes him a better person then me, or maybe that makes him wierder person then me, but I'm sure that persons like him are rare, and by my experience non existant.
If you could honestlly tell me that you would gladly live with the bugs in your apartment and not call an exterminator to kill all those alive beeings (they are life forms, they are not sentient maybe but still they are alive and creatures of the universe as we are), and could honestlly tell me that you can forgive the wolfs that ate your children and wife then you got my outmost respect and I sure as hell would wanna meet you and call you Jesus.
But honestlly thats an ideal, Helo is an ideal, through his character Ronald wanted to show what human simpaty for life is, and I honestlly can't relate to him, and I'm still to discover that simpaty in other human beeings.And further more i don't think it will ever happen. Why?
In my opinion (and hell i might be wrong ) it's the same reason that makes people feel sorry and emotinal stress when seeing all the Marcabs death in that room, and the one that makes them wanna kill all the Cylons, in essence it's the same power that drives those 2 actions. And reacting differentlly when wanting to destroy the Cylons who tbh killed bilions of lifes, makes us incompatable for feeling sorry for the Marcab. The 2 actions are both derived of the emotinal connection we have with the object of our actions. Morals aside, even the cruelest killer in the world has an emotinal connection to somebody or something that prevents him from hurting that person, or that something. And moral is a changeable state, it's reformed and restructured, one day is morally right to burn somebody, the next day is not, but emotions are always there, our actions are bound primary by them and then filtered by the morals that are actual at that time, trying to level our morals to that point that we can feel sorry for the Cylons is an utopia cause no matter how much we upgrade our moral standards we are still left with what our emotions want us to do. If we loose the emotinal connection that makes us wanna kill the Cylons, we loose the emotinal connection that makes us cry for the Marcabs.
My 2 cents, don't use flamethrowers on me please

The Markabs were dying from a disease they thought was caused by immoral living. If they had been less superstitious, they might have enlisted the help of other races early enough to find a cure before dying out completely. In essence, they died because their leaders were stupid.

With the Cylons, Helo seems to have thought it was an unfair way to kill them. There was also no guarantee that the virus would spread to every other cylon, even if he cylons themselves seemed to think so. Helo, being married to a cylon, would naturally be more willing to see individual cylons as true individuals, rather than just clones. Would killing all cylons make humans any better than the race that tried to exterminate them? Helo seems to think not.

One other thing, the four "new" cylons are in some ways very different from the seven, and it can be dangerous to assume that what we know works for one group would also work for the other. For one thing, Tigh seems to have aged normally.

For another, he fought in the first cylon war, shortly after the chrome-job cylon centurions were invented and supposedly before the cylons had 'evolved' into their skin-job versions at all. Not to mention there was an ancient temple that was seemingly related to those four and the undisclosed final model built thousands of years ago by humans.

I'm really hopeful the show's wrap-up wows me with the explanations of some (but not all) of the deeper mysteries of the show. Even moreso than the more front-and-centre mysteries in Lost.

Oh, yes. I do hope we get at least some explanations to the mysteries in the fourth (and possibly final) season of BSG.

The temple was built by humans and/or the Lords of Kobol. When it comes to fascinating mystique, BSG is second only to Babylon 5 IMO.

I agree with you 100% maneth! After watching BSG all the way through a couple months ago and now into the 5th season of b5 on my own.. I still find B5 the favorite of my sci fi shows over any star trek or anything else. I'm a huge chips and Knight rider Fan but I don't consider them sci fi of course even Airwolf.

But there is something emotional and very intriguing about B5 that almost seems personal.

Alex

The thing I like best about both B5 and BSG is that they make me think and question myself and my values. I usually end up more convinced than ever that I have found the right way for me to live, but the ethical issues involved in both shows do provide more intellectual stimulation than most other shows on TV ever do or did.