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Old July 29th 10, 15:24   #381
KoshFan
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Well, it niggled at me all night, so forgive the double post:

Buffy and the Scoobies were never uncool. They were unpopular, but we know (and they eventually realized) that they are indeed cool. In fact it's one of the lessons of the show that coolness is not in the eye of the beholder. And when cool but unpopular people grow up and find their place in the world, the unpopularity falls away. They come into their own... and then realize that they have to get jobs, be parents, pay the mortgage, etc. This was the great turn of the show, away from high school and out into the world of young adulthood, and not everyone was on board with it. But the theme of the show is growing up, not being a social outcast--or at least not just being an outcast.

So yeah, they're right that Spike took over too much (until Faith got back), but I can't agree with their subsidiary points.


Edit: Except it's not a double post! Thanks, GKE!
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Old July 29th 10, 16:08   #382
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

"Cool" is one of those terms that is so vague and able to be used in any context that it's useless. Popularity is indeed more at the heart of the article's point. And when it comes to Spike, he was introduced to the show as the guy in high school that pushed you around and got all the girls and is a jerk, and in the end that same guy is a hero and you want to be like him.

In seasons 1-3, the nerds that are good with technology and magic are the heroes. In season 6, the nerds that are good with technology and magic are the villains. Tara is attracted to Willow in large part because they're two outcasts that share things others can't understand. Kennedy, on the other hand, was attracted to Willow because she was impressed, superficially.

These are all superficial things, perhaps, but it changes the tone of a show. And when the nerds are the heroes and then the villains, I could see how there's a sense of betrayal on a loyal fan base. This is separate from the characters arcs of the original nerds in particular- Willow and Xander turned out to make sense and their stories are pretty great overall.
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Old July 29th 10, 17:32   #383
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

The nerds going from being heroes to villains is indeed something of a betrayal -- but I think it's one of the essential messages of the show. The Trio in Season Six represent how nerds can run off the rails too, in the absence of a strong family: after all, the most evil nerd of that season is Willow, and it's her family (the gang, but mostly Xander) who bring her back. Andrew becomes a part of the team in Season 7, albeit an annoying one, and actually shows some personal growth as a result, and it's pretty clear that Jonathan would have done the same, maybe even flourished, if he'd survived his effort at atonement.

So yeah, the fan base may have felt betrayed, 'cause here's their favorite show saying to them, "Look guys, you don't get a free ride just because you like us and because you're like us. We need to be careful, and you do too." Which is part and parcel with Joss's conviction that he has to tell us stories that we need, not just ones that we want. Plus the Trio, like Dr. Horrible, are in many ways an expression of the darkness in fanboy/Ubergeek Joss himself.

And by the end, is Spike really the guy who pushes our heroes around? He's loyal. He's compassionate. He's even loving. He's violent, yeah, but so's Buffy; he's caustic and annoyingly truthful, but so's Anya, and we see time and again that sometimes we need people like that in our lives.

Moreover, let's think about some of the guys who pushed our heroes around. I'm thinking of Larry, mostly, who's one of the worst initially, but by season three he's mellowed, and twice we see that his heart is truly in the right place, as he's willing to put his life on the line for the good fight. Let's also think of Buffy's speech in "Earshot," where she tells Jonathan (who tragically may not have listened closely enough) that everyone who's ever bullied him and harassed him and cold-shouldered him is doing it because they themselves are in pain.

So one of the lessons of the show is that even the guys who pushed you around can be redeemed, and are worth redeeming.

It changes the tone of the show, but the tone of life changes. And if we can't deal with the changes, then yes, the show is not for us, but we shouldn't denigrate the show for not being what we want.


I accept and embrace the idea that Spike got too much screen time in the last season, though. That's the biggest problem S7 had in a nutshell, right enough.
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Old July 29th 10, 19:05   #384
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

The wife and I really enjoyed Buffy and we would watch both versions of it religiously. It was for us mainly a fun show with some action thrown in. Favourite seasons would have to be four and five, loved the Initative and Glory was the ultimate split personality. Favourite character was the predictable one I'm afraid and went by the name Spike. He was just fun to watch and always got a laugh.
I found it rather strange at the end of the series when the super vampires which took so much killing earlier were being killed easily by everyone but it was a damn good finale so I wont let that bother me too much.
Angel we didn't watch as much and seemed a lot harder to get into. There were some good episodes though and of course as soon as Spike reappeared the series got a lot more fun for us. Nobody can bug Angel like Spike!
It has been fun reading this thread, time consuming too, and reliving the Buffy experience thank you very much.

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Old July 29th 10, 19:29   #385
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Quote:
Plus the Trio, like Dr. Horrible, are in many ways an expression of the darkness in fanboy/Ubergeek Joss himself.
I can sympathize with that- I struggle with my geekiness, embracing it, mocking it, deriding and/or praising it in others, etc.

But I'm sure all you loser nerds know what I'm talking about.
*goes back to computer programming...*
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Old July 30th 10, 00:16   #386
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

During WW2:

Angel: "I'm not getting trapped at the bottom of the sea"
Spike: "And I'm not getting experimented on by his government"

hah
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Old July 30th 10, 01:02   #387
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

puppets wtf lol
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Old July 30th 10, 01:25   #388
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

My copy of Angel season 5 is not the DVD, it's recorded from TV or something like that, 'cause some of these episodes have previews for the next episode. In the case of the puppet episode (wtf lol), it resulted in the ultimate encapsulation of how Buffy/Angel handles relationships:

Episode ends with Fred and Wesley hooking up.
"On the next episode of Angel...."
and then they show Fred dying and Wed crying.
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Old July 30th 10, 02:09   #389
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Potential plot hole? in the puppet (wtf lol) episode:

Lorne and someone else (forgot who) visit the guy that invented the puppets. He sings a little something, yet Lorne cannot tell that anything is amiss (while he was being controlled by a puppet (wtf lol)).
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Old July 30th 10, 02:44   #390
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

The Puppet (wtf lol) episode* had me rolling. Hard to believe it's in the 5th season, I coulda sworn it was no later than S3?





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