why compare

Being a fan of both Star Trek and Babylon 5, it never fails to amaze me that people feel this compelling need to compare the two in an effort to determine which is better. Each show (or shows) stands on its own. Both have their high points and not so high points and share similarites. Having said that both shows have their own characterization, mythology, mood and feeling and both have been very successful at providing intelligent and exciting entertainment. There is plenty of room out there for quality scifi enterntainment. I think constantly pitting two of the best examples of this field against each other is not only couter productive, but serves no good purpose at all.

I think I'm beginning to see it that way, too. What's the point? One thing I will say about the whole writing in an arc: it makes it tough to miss an episode! I'm looking forward to seeing "Enterprise" tomorrow even though I missed last week's episode. They tend to be stand-alone episodes, and that makes it easier if you have to miss one now and then.

And the whole "arc" thing is very hard to pull off. It usually starts slow and builds. Keeping people with the show while you are doing that must be quite a trick indeed.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' - Zero Mostel, The Producers

I think there is a Star Trek/B5 comparison debate going on because the first 3 Star Trek spinoffs were on the same times as B5, so the two shows had to compete with each other for the science fiction viewing audience. I also wonder if it's the Trek fans fanning the flames because they realize B5 is better than Trek and don't want to admit it.

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RW, the salad ambassador. Visit my salad bar forum at www.b5rangers.net

For me the there is no debate Babylon 5 will always be the best

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The debate, as it stands now, is rather useless.

The reason for it is partly because of Paramount's efforts to kill B5 when it came out. At the time ST was the only serious space show on the air and the company did a lot to try to keep it that way. Having to fight against this the people behind the show and the fans that supported them developed a certain adversarial relationship with the empire many of those same fans once loved(ST).

Now the monopoly is broken. Farscape, Lexx(my opinions of the show besides the point), and to a lesser degree other shows with Rodenberry's name slapped on them are on the air. A new show is in less danger from the ST juggernaut now so both can be enjoyed.

The reasons for the animosity were valid. Now they are less important. Many of the anti-ST people were former fans who now see shows that don't have the issues they always saw with the show they watched. Many felt betrayed when they found out that the people they supported were in fact working to keep more shows they might like off the air.

Personally I don't care what ST does now. I have yet to watch Enterprise because the people behind the show used up all my loyalty with Voyager. I don't care though because even though Enterprise is sure to have seven years it no longer means other shows won't be on the air.

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"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> the first 3 Star Trek spinoffs were on the same times as B5, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in my neighborhood. And certainly not in first run.

Most of the "fights" are provoked by Trolls who get a perverted kick out of watching people squabble.
The rest are, as you said, started by rabid fans who seem to think that the existence of any other show is a Personal Insult.

The first type is in need of a sharp boot to the head.

For the second type, I'd recommend a good headshrinker.
Except I suspect many of them already Had one of those and have just stopped taking their medication.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited October 23, 2001).]

Compasisons between B5 and ST are perfectly valid, *if* it is done in the right way. A proper discussion about the plot and formats of the show and the advantages and disadvantages of each. However such discussion rapidly degenerates into a slanging match between people who have nothing more productive to say than "My show is superior in every way to any other show there is."

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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."

ABSO-FRAGGIN-LUTELY!!!!! Both ST and B5 are sci-fi shows, but otherwise, they are totally different shows. It also depends on which, ST you're talking about - TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY. Even those four have a completely different feel to each series. TOS is the funniest, the most 'human' of the St shows. Okay, it is rather sexist - Kirk was getting bedded every second show - but any other show of the 60s was very similar in that regard. But it still holds up quite well. TNG stumbled about a bit for the first couple of seasons, but then found its niche, and became a worthy sucessor. DS9 - well, to be fair, it's not the first show to be set on a space station - Space 1999 anyone? There have probably been others, but their names don't spring to mind at the moment. Voyager, it is okay, and I watch it, but it isn't quite to the same quality. Enterprise isn't here yet, so I was have to reserve judgement until I see it. And B5 wouldn't exist if ST didn't exist.
B5 is B5, it's unique. I have heard some people say that it's the science fiction show that people who don't like science fiction actually watch, because it has more to offer than sci-fi. It could have been set pretty much anywhere, at any time - with a few minor changes, of course, and it would still work.

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Why compare? Well, a lot of people are familiar with Trek, and have never heard about Babylon 5. They've most likely "seen" Trek in one form or another, but wouldn't recognize Babylon 5 if they saw it and the show title wasn't on the screen at the time. I'm not talking about "us" here, but rather the average person in the general public. Comparing B5 to Trek allows you to establish a point of reference. By doing so, you can help the other person visualize B5.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Well said, KoshN.

Granted, most people here probably like B5 better than Trek, but comparing them doesn't necessarily mean bashing one or the other. Yes, I do like B5 better, and I have occasionally participated in the critiquing of Star Trek. However, I do still like both, and B5 isn't always perfect itself. To expand on what KoshN said...

There is probably no sci-fi TV "sub-genre" more extensive in scope, recognition, longevity, etc. than Star Trek. TOS was one of the first sci-fi shows on TV, one of the first sci-fi TV shows to spawn a movie franchise, one of the first sci-fi TV shows to have a spinoff series, and the only show in history I can think of that had not 1 but 4 spinoffs (5 if you count the animated series). And when TNG first appeared, I'm pretty sure it was about the only sci-fi show on TV at the time.

So... For all intents and purposes, and despite how many flaws people can find in it, Star Trek has the distinction of being the "standard-bearer". Maybe someday, if Rangers and/or Crusade become a series, or if there is a B5 movie, and if B5 eventually reaches more homes, then maybe B5 will be the "standard-bearer". But for now, just about everyone knows Trek, even the people who don't watch sci-fi regularly. It's a part of our culture.

So, all sci-fi TV shows are bound to get compared to Trek, just like...

--every space movie will get compared to Star Wars
--every spy franchise will get compared to James Bond
--every doctor show will probably get compared to ER
--any Christian rapture/tribulation related books will probably get compared to the Left Behind series
--every computer operating system will get compared to Windows, Mac, or both
--every blond bombshell will get compared to Marilyn Monroe
--etc.

It's natural and harmless, and unless you come right out and say that either B5 or Trek sucks, then comparing them doesn't mean hating one and loving the other. Trek will always be around and will be easy to reincarnate, but B5 constantly struggles. So, for those of us who do like B5 better than Trek, the comparisons are really more of a way complimenting B5 by saying that it broke the mold and surpassed the "standard". That's why we do it (or, at least, why I think we do it).

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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.

Thoughts & prayers to citizens of NY, DC, and to us all.

[This message has been edited by Ninja_Squirrel (edited October 26, 2001).]

As a long time scifi afficionado, I want as many choices on tv as possible. I certainly don't like them all the same, and I don't mind comparing them. If I had to choose between any ST show and B5, my choice would be Babylon 5. I still watch the others too and find them quite enjoyable at times. The big problem with being a B5 fan is that it spoiled me for other shows. I now find the episodic shows a bit boring when you KNOW nothing is going to happen to the regular cast and everything will be the same at the end of each episode.

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I like both Trek and B5, but I like B5 better. I watched almost all of the old Star Trek episodes and enjoyed them, I liked TNG and Voyager, but could not get into DS9, and Enterprise I haven't seen other than the pilot movie. But as much as I liked Trek, I like B5 better. I think B5 looks and feels more "real" than Trek. It's got better characters that we get to see grow and change more than Trek. The storylines are better as well. I find B5 to much more realistic, and thus better entertaining.

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RW, the salad ambassador. Visit my salad bar forum at www.b5rangers.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel:
Well said, KoshN.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Ninja_Squirrel. I was just trying to come at it from a fresh POV, and show that comparing isn't necessarily bad, or bashing one show or the other.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Since when was comparing anything so bad?

The Chevy Blazer and Ford Explorer are made by two different companies...they both have their positives and negatives..but some people want to know what the best one is....The companies even buy each others cars and rip 'em apart to see what improvements can be made to their cars.

Mind you...I think the Ford Explorer handles much better, so I think that outweighs any other positives currently in the Chevy Blazer.

Yes...the Chevy Blazer is it's own entity...but it does have drawbacks and can learn a few things from the Ford Explorer..


by the way..this has nothing to do with B5 and Trek...I just like talkin cars.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Comparing B5 to Trek allows you to establish a point of reference. By doing so, you can help the other person visualize B5.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course:
"Have you ever seen Star Trek?"
"Yes."
"Well, Babylon 5 is Nothing like Any of the Trek shows. It's 100 times better."


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Star Trek. TOS was one of the first sci-fi shows on TV... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Twilight Zone, Outer Limits and Science Fiction Theater ALL preceeded Trek. And were better.

TZ in particular is remembered as the Best SF show ever.
And that's Without a huge marketing campaign pushing it into the "collective consciousness".



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Well, Star Trek was the first serial science fiction television show featuring regular characters and settings geared for adults.

Trek was a huge milestone for TV. Before it, any other "serious" sci-fi shows were anthologies, like the ones bakana listed.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sven Foriegner:
Since when was comparing anything so bad?

The Chevy Blazer and Ford Explorer are made by two different companies...they both have their positives and negatives..but some people want to know what the best one is....The companies even buy each others cars and rip 'em apart to see what improvements can be made to their cars.

Mind you...I think the Ford Explorer handles much better, so I think that outweighs any other positives currently in the Chevy Blazer.

Yes...the Chevy Blazer is it's own entity...but it does have drawbacks and can learn a few things from the Ford Explorer..


by the way..this has nothing to do with B5 and Trek...I just like talkin cars.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they could both learn from Jeep. e.g. How to have a real transfer case. I prefer Selec-Trac (unfortunately not available in a Wrangler, because the case is too long to fit a Wrangler). I've had a few Explorers. There were OK, on-road, until the 1995 model year. My '95 was a piece-o-crap. Control-Trac is useless. I should have saved the money and bought a 4x2 version. My '92 XLT could make it through snow, on-road that would get the '95 stuck. This isn't even mentioning all the '95 repair problems. The '95 was a BAAAAD design. I wanted to shoot mine, literally.


When Ford goes back to a nice, fully mechanical, no computers involved, transfer case, I'll look at 'em again. I want the t-case to do what I tell it to do, not have some computer second guess me. I almost had an accident because the computer didn't keep it in 4x4, and so I just barely got out of the way of an out-of-control Dodge Caravan. Missed me by 6". In any of my previous Ford 4x4's, it wouldn't have been close. Boy, was I mad!

I don't know what Chevy uses for a t-case, but that new DOHC I6 has me interested.

Still, ... Nothing compares to a JEEP.

Hope, the NBS doesn't come after me for posting all this car stuff.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/


[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited October 26, 2001).]

I have never bothered to get involved in any of the "Which is better" arguments.
To me they are two very different shows with two different outlooks. Just beacause they are both Sci-Fi does not make one better than the other.
Over the years I enjoyed "Battlestar Galactica" (Only the first year) "Buck Rogers" "Voyage to the bottom of the sea" (the first one) "Quantum Leap" and many more
but I don't see any point in comparing them as they all had their different entertainment values.
I was always an avid fan of Star Trek until Voyager, I tried but it just could not hold my attention.
The first year of B5 was a hit a miss thing for me, not because I didn't like it but because the stations kept playing around with the time slot. Once it settled into a regular time I never missed an episode but that does not mean I am not willing to give Enterprise a chance.


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"No boom to-day, boom tomorrow.
There is always a boom tomorrow."

When you get right down to it, the argument usually devolves to:

"It's Better because I Liked it!"

Still, there are some benefits if you can explain Why you liked one or were disappointed in the other.

If you have no idea WHY, or if Why still devolves to "because I said so!", the discussion is pointless.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Comparison doesn't have to mean which is the better show. You could compare a subject that both shows have tackled and discuss that. For example B5's telepaths compared to ST's Betazoids. The Psi-Corps place strict controls on their members whereas Dianna Troi goes around sensing everyone else's feelings all the time.

Also the different ways in which the wars were approached in B5 and DS9. Which is better is a matter of opinion, but there is plenty of grounds for comparison. One thing I noticed was Bashir's willingness to let the Founders die after saving Odo compared to Franklin's addamant refusal to allow his work to be used in the Minbari war.

This is what comparison is really about, not just stating which show you like best (considering that this is a B5 site the opinions would be fairly bias anyway).

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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."