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Just how similar are DS9 and B5?

vacantlook

Super Moderator
I just finished watching tonight's TrekUncut on SpikeTV. The two episodes of Deep Space Nine shown tonight were "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", and watching them struck me with how exceptionally similar to parts of Babylon 5 that DS9 is. Some similarity is going to exist between the two shows no matter what, but sometimes the quantity of similarities is astounding.

1. (The most obvious similarity:) Set upon a space station with casinos and bars being a frequently visited location.

2. Long-distance spacial travelling through a tunnel-like event outside the station. (Wormhole; Jump Gate)

3. Commander/Captain who's lost a wife. (Sisko; Sheridan)

4. Commander/Captain who has special religious significance to an alien race of prominent importance to the existance of the space station. (Sisko to the Bajorans; Sinclair and to a lesser extent Sheridan to the Minbari)

5. Captain's onscreen relationship with his parents is shown solely through his father.

6. Tension due to racial issues regarding one promient alien race that imprisoned another promient alien race. (Cardassians imprisoned the Bajorians; Centauri imprisoned the Narn)

7. Prominent alien race who hold creating and maintaining order to be a primary goal. (The Founders; Vorlons)

8. Prominent alien race infiltrates/gains major influence over Earth goverment. (The Founders; Shadows)

9. A pilot episode that has a plot hit-point revolving around shapeshifting. (Odo being a changeling and using that ability to stop a crime; A Minbari using a changeling-net to commit crime)

10. The Captain coming to possess and use an agile prototype ship for missions away from the station. (The Defiant; The White Star)

11. The series ends with the Captain surrounded by light in relation to his death. (Sisko with the Prophets in the Wormhole; Sheridan with Lorien)

And the two TrekUncut episodes that were on tonight alerted me to the following:

12. The President on Earth declaring martial law. (Jaresh-Inyo; Clark)

13. A human conspires to seize control of the government away from the President for himself by placing people loyal to him in possitions of power. (Admiral Leyton from Jaresh-Inyo; Clark from Santiago) Interesting to note that Leyton is played by Robert Foxworth, the man who played General Hague on Babylon 5.

14. "Strengthening Earth" is a reason given for declaration of martial law and the take-over/attempted take-over of Earth government.

15. Characters wrestle with the concept of following the chain of command and obeying orders when those orders violate their principles. (Sisko and Commander Benteen; Sheridan and his crew)

16. Characters wrestle with the concept and eventuality of having to fire on their own ships. (Commander Benteen and Worf; Sheridan and numerous others)

I haven't even bothered to think more deeply about this; these are all points that sprung to mind after watching two episodes tonight and remembering a few other episodes I'd seen in the past. Now, I love Deep Space Nine, and I obviously love Babylon 5, so I'm not exactly complaining about the similarities, but I think realizing the quantity of similarities just struck me as considerable tonight after watching "Homefront" and Paradise Lost."
 
Well... there is some debate about how 'planned' the DS9 story arcs actually were...

From the moment Kosh stepped on B5 in The Gathering, JMS knew they were always going to cross the Rim after the Shadow War...

When Sisko arived on DS9, the Dominion War was not even remotely conceived by Berman and Co.

Let's just say that DS9 had a cobbled together story-arc, a story-arc on the fly as it were...
 
Yeah, there are definite similarities...and I don;t think it's a coincidence that the Trek show most like B5, with a long, complicated Arc (even if it was unplanned), 3D characters, and characters who, unlike most Trek characters, actually change and develop as the show goes on...is also arguably the best Trek series.

(although personally I still prefer ToS).
 
I just finished watching tonight's TrekUncut on SpikeTV. The two episodes of Deep Space Nine shown tonight were "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", and watching them struck me with how exceptionally similar to parts of Babylon 5 that DS9 is. Some similarity is going to exist between the two shows no matter what, but sometimes the quantity of similarities is astounding.

1. Trek Uncut on SpikeTV is evidently cut. See Subject: Spike TV is dropping frames on DS9/TNG reruns After you go to the link, go to the top of the thread.

2. It's well known that JMS pitched B5 to Paramount, Paramount declined, and then soon (before B5's pilot) decided to do DS9.

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Pitching TV Series (B5, and in general)

Subject: Attn: JMS, re: B5 and DS9.

Subject: Deep Space 9

Subject: Deep Space 9

Subject: Re: Who cares if DS9 imitates B5

Subject: DS9 = Babylon5 So what?

Subject: DS9 = Babylon5 So what?

Subject: Grand Theft, drama!

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5

Subject: Actually, we've already *had* ST...

Subject: Re: DS9 establishes a new nadi

Subject: Re: DS9 vs B5 comments

Subject: Re: B5's effect on DS9

Subject: Loops: get the hell away from my...

Subject: DS9 vs B5 question

Subject: Quickies...apparently (I'm told)...

Subject: nic, you persist in this notion...

So, are you surprised by the "similarities?" The amount depends on just how much DS9 was "guided" at the detail level.

3. For me, they both started out with similar concepts, and then better writing turned B5 into a much better show.
 
I've always liked JMS' quote when asked why he wasn't flattered that they stole his idea by saying something along the lines of "How would you like it if I stole your car?"

I actually never saw any of B5 until I was well into DS9, but I never viewed B5 as being the one doing the pilfering. It was only after I got into B5 that I saw the similarities - not just from the basic premise, but throughout the entire run.

DS9's final season seemed to me to be the most shameless ripoff of all. They started using the same notable directors, character actors and plot themes. Bill Mumy and John Vickery appeared. General Haig was in a Starfleet uniform. It was almost like watching rejected B5 scripts with the names changed. I guess they figured that since B5 was over, they didn't have to hide it anymore.
 
I have thought about this a lot.
In Season 1 of B5 you have the Homeguard, In DS9 Season 2 you have the Circle. You get Quark branded in DS9 as well as that Minbari bint in B5.
Both Series had leading men that were not Captains...
I cant think of more right now.
I like DS9 a heck of a lot, but S7 of it is just poo. I dont care who did what first or who ripped it off... I liked them both.
 
I think it was inevitable that the DS9 series would come to resemble B5 unless you locked away all the writers and physically prevented them from watching B5. If I were an SF writer, I would certainly watch both shows, and my writing would be influenced by both.

Some of the similarities may have been deliberate, and some unintentional. However, the key difference between the two was that B5 had a story arc from the beginning, and JMS spent a lot of effort to include forshadowing and to making the effort of rewatching older episodes rewarding (as you got to see links that were there all the time, even when you didn't see them the first time). DS9 lacks that sort of intricate detail, because it wasn't designed the same way.

The key difference between the two was that B5 was designed to end when the story was told, and DS9 was intended to end when the ratings indicated that it would have to. Thus, B5 has a pace and timing that DS9 couldn't have - DS9 simply couldn't climax in a specific season, as they didn't know how many more seasons they had left to run.

Both are good shows, but I prefer the less "economically wise" B5 approach because it is simply better story-telling technique.
 
that Minbari bint in B5.

Odd, I've never heard anyone describe the Minbari poet as a "bint" before.

DS9, as much as I like it, is a rather guilty pleasure of mine. Just look at the timeline and you'll know they damned well ripped off many fundamental concepts for DS9 from the B5 description they were given. Even the way they ended it. Yes, they could have pretty much thrown that endind in after many an episode, so they were a bit less arc-driven than JMS was.

But it seems to me there is no argument: they ripped of JMS's idea and he now is probably a lot more careful when pitching his ideas to folk. As he pointed out, it wasn't flattering, it was robbery.
 
Both Series had leading men that were not Captains...

To take that further...


In its 2nd season, B5's leading man was replaced with man that was a Captain. Somewhere around its 3rd or fourth season, DS9's leading man was promoted to Captain.
 
Both series had a major female character leave the series for the final season. :)

BTW does anyone remember why Terry Ferrel left DS9 and didn't stay on for that last season? Was it part of the story, or didn't the actoress want to do 1 more?
 
I seem to remember that she asked to leave. She also asked that her character not be killed off, IIRC.
 
To take that further...

I just saw an ep the other night where Sisko and O'Brien got marooned on a planet with people who refused to use modern technology. The woman who tried to seduce Sisko was played by the same actress who played Catherine Sakai. Sinclair would have been pissed!
:p
 
I seem to remember that she asked to leave. She also asked that her character not be killed off, IIRC.

Yes, and then they killed off her characer anyway in one of the lamest and most pathetic main character deaths I've ever seen...wiht perhaps the exception of Kirk's.

But then B&B do that to actors and characters that they feel slighted by, regardless of the fan's adoration of them.
 
Meh. It's the Star Trek universe. If they do a movie and want her back, I'm sure they can come up with one of a HUNDRED ways to bring her back. No character in Star Trek is ever in danger of being dead for good. :)
 
Meh. It's the Star Trek universe. If they do a movie and want her back, I'm sure they can come up with one of a HUNDRED ways to bring her back. No character in Star Trek is ever in danger of being dead for good. :)
Yep. The difference between a Star Trek charactor and Dracula is that Dracula DOES DIE when you drive a stake into his heart. :LOL:
 
I seem to remember that she asked to leave. She also asked that her character not be killed off, IIRC.

Yes, and then they killed off her characer anyway in one of the lamest and most pathetic main character deaths I've ever seen...wiht perhaps the exception of Kirk's.

But then B&B do that to actors and characters that they feel slighted by, regardless of the fan's adoration of them.

Did you see the way Terry was written out of Becker, without even a guest appearance? :mad: That was one of the lamest ways to get rid of a character that I've ever seen. They seem to follow Terry around. :(
 

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