Why Does Babylon 5 Always Get Screwed???

Ninja_Squirrel · Dec 13, 2002

I was just reading the posts about the questionable quality of the new S1 DVD's (which I haven't gotten around to buying yet but will eventually), and it makes me wonder why it is Babylon 5 always gets screwed over at every point in the game. Here's what I'm talking about...

1. According to the story I've heard, B5 was pitched to Paramount first; they turned it down but released ST

S9 (which I also like anyway) soon after; however, a lot of people not educated on the matter seem to think of B5 as the ripoff show instead of DS9.

2. B5 struggles to stay on the air every year and often got shafted with the worst time slots and sometimes showed on the weakest of local affiliates (I remember a year or two of B5 appearing on a local affiliate in the Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point, NC area that was so low budget that their reception was poor even thru cable TV).

3. When B5 does gain enough respect to be saved by TNT to the point of even releasing TV movies, then the spinoff show Crusade gets screwed over by TNT execs.

4. B5 episodes are released on VHS in odd orders (S1 and S5 first, then S2 and S4), and then halted before all the episodes are out, supposedly because of poor sales.

5. Despite decent reviews of B5 on the Sci-Fi Channel, they don't give Legend of the Rangers a chance to be a series.

6. Now B5 is finally coming out on DVD and even selling well, but now we have to contend with crappy and inconsistent picture quality. (poor quality on DVD's??? Ehh???)

Despite being one of the most compelling and well-crafted TV series to come along, especially to the sci-fi genre in particular, it seems B5 has been plagued with challenges and pitfalls every step of the way. There's a line in one episode where Sheridan says something to the effect of, "I feel I've been carrying this whole station on my back over broken glass for __ years." Somehow, I can't help but feel that was JMS speaking thru the character about the show itself.

Why can't B5 have some kind of good luck for a change?

KoshN · Dec 13, 2002

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
I was just reading the posts about the questionable quality of the new S1 DVD's (which I haven't gotten around to buying yet but will eventually), and it makes me wonder why it is Babylon 5 always gets screwed over at every point in the game. Here's what I'm talking about...

1. According to the story I've heard, B5 was pitched to Paramount first; they turned it down but released STS9 (which I also like anyway) soon after; however, a lot of people not educated on the matter seem to think of B5 as the ripoff show instead of DS9.

People don't want to think ill of their beloved Trek. I never cared for DS9, but love B5. Even when ripping off ideas, Paramount can't make as good a show.

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
2. B5 struggles to stay on the air every year and often got shafted with the worst time slots and sometimes showed on the weakest of local affiliates (I remember a year or two of B5 appearing on a local affiliate in the Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point, NC area that was so low budget that their reception was poor even thru cable TV).

Yes, until they showed up on TNT, all I got on WPGH-53 Pittsburgh (on cable) was a 50% too dark picture and the sound in mono. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
3. When B5 does gain enough respect to be saved by TNT to the point of even releasing TV movies, then the spinoff show Crusade gets screwed over by TNT execs.

Good old TNT-Atlanta. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
4. B5 episodes are released on VHS in odd orders (S1 and S5 first, then S2 and S4), and then halted before all the episodes are out, supposedly because of poor sales.

Same for Laserdisc. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
5. Despite decent reviews of B5 on the Sci-Fi Channel, they don't give Legend of the Rangers a chance to be a series.

Sci-Fi execs don't have the sense they were born with.

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
6. Now B5 is finally coming out on DVD and even selling well, but now we have to contend with crappy and inconsistent picture quality. (poor quality on DVD's??? Ehh???)

Warner Brothers/Warner Home Video = tightwads with no vision.

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
Despite being one of the most compelling and well-crafted TV series to come along, especially to the sci-fi genre in particular, it seems B5 has been plagued with challenges and pitfalls every step of the way.

...while other, lesser series skate through with 7 years of crap, with no hint of cancellation looming. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
There's a line in one episode where Sheridan says something to the effect of, "I feel I've been carrying this whole station on my back over broken glass for __ years." Somehow, I can't help but feel that was JMS speaking thru the character about the show itself.

That would be about right.

Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel: 
Why can't B5 have some kind of good luck for a change?

Sure would be nice, wouldn't it? The trouble is, after all B5/Crusade/Rangers has gone through, if they did catch a break, we'd all probably keel over from massive coronaries.

BTW, you forgot:

7. The Babylon 5 Combat Flight Simulator gets scuttled (Sierra/Havas).

8. The Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine goes under.

9. Del Rey has been dragging it's feet forever on coming out with the Short Story Anthology. Evidently, they think there is no market.

10. Warner Brothers loses the CGI files, and Netter Digital goes bankrupt, so the files are gone forever, and all five years worth of that creativity, lost. Warner Brothers also stores the film so well, that it sustains the damage we see in the DVDs, and then doesn't think enough of Babylon 5 to restore the picture for even the worst of the damage.

NOTE: The comments about the dust and scratches on the picture (in the DVDs) is not as bad as it sounds. It's just that we care more about this show than other shows, and so we look at it much more closely, and are VERY protective of it, and want to see it treated MUCH, MUCH better by Warner Brothers.

Shaal Mayan · Dec 13, 2002

I think Babylon 5 will always get screwed by sh*ty executives who think the only thing that can sell or be profitable is Star Trek.Until that time comes and Babylon 5 has a rivial I don't see anything good for us happening anytime soon.With the exception of the dvd's of course. Yeah I too think if something good did happen we would definately have heart failure the shock of it all would be tremendous.

KoshFan · Dec 13, 2002

Good but unusual stuff is rarely appreciated until later. Think Tolkien. Think Picasso. Think JS Bach, for crying out loud. We all have a fear of the new and original.

Remember, the original Star Trek wasn't very well appreciated early on. The original pilot sank, as I recall, with the comment that it was "too good for TV." (If that was too good, Babylon 5 would have never gotten in the door back then.) Then the show gets made, runs a few years, and gets cancelled. Only a massive outpouring of fan support made the franchise live on.

I think with scifi the executives are still leery. Look what happened: Star Trek comes out, does pretty well, and a whole bunch of bad imitations show up and bomb. The same happened in movies with Star Wars (although whether or not that's actually sci-fi is open to debate). I think the executives decided that only "the real thing" can work in scifi. So when a decent idea such as B5 comes along, Paramount says, "well, we like it, but it'll never fly unless it's Star Trek," and out pops DS9. As we all know this was dead wrong. But there it is; the tightwads watched too many bad spinoffs sink to risk going out on a limb for something original.

Take heart, though. B5 made it through, and it's here to stay, although somewhat low-profile. It could have been worse -- it could have been cancelled after S3. With Z'ha'dum as the last episode ever. Wouldn't that have been a downer?

The show has been made, and nothing can take that away from us now.

KoshN · Dec 13, 2002

Originally posted by KoshFan: 
It could have been worse -- it could have been cancelled after S3. With Z'ha'dum as the last episode ever. Wouldn't that have been a downer?

The very thought is sickening, and would fit in quite well with the current state of "sci-fi" series, especially on The "Sci-Fi" Channel.

Ninja_Squirrel · Dec 13, 2002

7. The Babylon 5 Combat Flight Simulator gets scuttled (Sierra/Havas).

8. The Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine goes under.

9. Del Rey has been dragging it's feet forever on coming out with the Short Story Anthology. Evidently, they think there is no market.

10. Warner Brothers loses the CGI files, and Netter Digital goes bankrupt, so the files are gone forever, and all five years worth of that creativity, lost. Warner Brothers also stores the film so well, that it sustains the damage we see in the DVDs, and then doesn't think enough of Babylon 5 to restore the picture for even the worst of the damage.

Good points. I forgot about #7, vaguely remember #8, but didn't know about #9 & #10. So the CGI files are gone?!?. I was actually thinking the other day how it would be nice for B5 graphics to be re-enhanced (like the special editions of Star Wars). For instance, the Jump Points could be re-made to look like they did in Crusade and Legend of the Rangers. But, it sounds like that will never happen now.

A friend and I were talking at lunch about the differences between Babylon 5 and Star Trek. I get the feeling that the first season of B5 turned people off to the show, preventing it from gaining a stronger core audience. I have to admit, S1 turned me off too, and I had to re-discover it by accident in S2 or S3, and then go back and catch up. Even at it's worst, B5 stands up well to other science fiction, but with everything going against it, I wish it had had a stronger first season. I think a lot of people missed out on a great series by rejecting it early on and never trying it again.

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 13, 2002

Good but unusual stuff is rarely appreciated until later. Think Tolkien. Think Picasso. Think JS Bach, for crying out loud. We all have a fear of the new and original.

mediocrity is the standard, especially in the US. i mean, look at what is popular on TV and radio right now: reality shows like bachelor and avril lavergne (who sounds like tiffany with guitars). heaven forbid if someone deviates from the norm and has a shred of creativity. of course they get shafted - they're a threat to the status quo.

intelligence, creativity and free thinking are not valued in this country, especially not right now. to put it in a political context, if you think the "war on terrorism" is just a lot of imperial dick waving (see george carlin's bigger dick theory of war), then you are obviously not a patriot, and are conspiring with al qaida.

but, alas, it seems that's the way of human nature. look at galileo and copernicus. it takes years, if not decades, for new ideas to be accepted. i see stuff like b5 being done eventually, in about 10-15 years. it's sad, but that's the march (or snail's crawl) of history.

hypatia · Dec 13, 2002

if you think the "war on terrorism" is just a lot of imperial dick waving (see george carlin's bigger dick theory of war), then you are obviously not a patriot, and are conspiring with al qaida.

No kidding. It is as if in the minds of some complete mindless submission is expected and required. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

So just be quiet and watch another rerun of "Friends". /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Oh, it's not a rerun? Hmm. Kind of hard to tell, really.

Galahad · Dec 13, 2002

When B5 was originally released on video in the UK, they DID release it in seasonal and episodic order. So what was with Warners in the UK? I am fortunate to have every single episode, expet for a couple of Crusade tapes and Legend of the Rangers (which didn't air in the UK).

Elenopa · Dec 13, 2002

Luckily I have everything B5 on tape. Including Rangers as someone shipped it to me from the US.

Getting screwed #11 Calendar cancelled this year /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

The comments about anything creative getting shafted, reflects exactly what is written in 'Farenheight 451'. I'm just reading it at the moment, but I've got to the part where it explains how the burning of books began. Basically anything that upset the minorities; showed creativity; made you think; was burned.

The future is now.

Galahad · Dec 14, 2002

I think when art is challenged in the name of taste, sometimes that os OK and right.

However when art is challenged in the name of commercial profit, that ois just wrong.

In Britain there was talk about two years ago of publishers considering a rewrite of the winnie the Pooh books, to remove Piglet and replace him with another character as he was offensive to Muslims and they could make more money if one of the main character's wasn't a pig. That was sad, it sounds though like it died a death which is good news.

There was also talk of fiddling with the Narnia books to make them more relevant to today's kids. NO! I'm not an evacuated war-child, yet when I was young I was able to appreciate the charm of the books.

Political correctness is a paradoxical term sometimes, and profiteers are to be resented when they meddle in the affairs of "wizards".

PsiProne · Dec 14, 2002

Sci-Fi execs don't have the sense they were born with

Correction, the sci-fi execs were not born with any sense period, neither are the execs of TNT and Warner Brothers for that matter.

hypatia · Dec 15, 2002

IIRC, the unfortunate truth is these "idiots" are making more money. More people are watching their stations.

B5-style programming just won't pull in the same bucks that brainless programming can. So we are pretty much out of luck.

Get used to reading a good book. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

A_M_Swallow · Dec 15, 2002

Things are more complicated than that. There is room for 4 or 5 general purpose stations; beyond that most general purpose TV stations will go bankrupt. The distribution of viewers will follow the bell curve. 5% of the stations will have 50% of the audience and 20% of the channels will have 80% of the audience. For a small station the trick is to be in the 20% or to find a niche market.

The Sci-Fi channel gets 1 to 2 million viewers out of a US population of 287 million. This is 0.7%. The audience will have to be ten times the size before it will be worth while advertising things like soap powder on the channel.

Turning the figures round are there any products that the 2 million viewers may buy that that 99% of the population will not buy in 2003? Linux? Sci-Fi books? Recordable DVD players?

Endymion · Dec 15, 2002

Creativity by committee never did work. JMS was unique in that he got a book that he wrote onto TV. That never happened before, not even with Star Trek.

Because of the recent cancellation of the one committee-created show that did seem to work, Farscape, I've given up with TV shows for good. I'll stick to my bookshelf.

I am glad that WB got the DVDs sets out. I think it's a rare thing with the medium so new, and I personally would rather have DVDs with some problems than no DVDs at all. Credit where it's due.
-----------------------------------------

Jade Jaguar · Dec 16, 2002

Why does B5 always get screwed? Because it has such a cute ass! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GaribaldisHair · Dec 16, 2002

Why is everyone always so down on Warner Bros when it comes to B5? If, as many have posted here, creativity is a thing best avoided in USTV and anything original has little chance of seeing the light of day, then we should be thankful that not only did Warners take on B5 as a pilot, it also moved it to series, and kept it on the air even when PTEN (B5's original home) went under.

WHV's full release of the VHS tapes in the UK (where there has never been a complete terrestrial TV rerun of the show) was greatly appreciated by those of us who took advantage of it, and the failure of the US release is generally put down to the loose comments from someone at WHV implying imminent release of the show on DVD, which of course finally happened much later.

Likewise, here we are (probably) seeing a full release of the show on DVD, even as we approach the 10th anniversary of the pilot, and having passed the 4th anniversary of the final episode being broadcast.

Given the general ratings achieved by the show, and the fact that (by JMS' own admission) it was and is never likely to be a huge mainstream hit, the DVD release certainly demonstrates a level of belief in the long-term appeal of the original show.

Bottom line is, WB and WHV are businesses. If they feel they can make a profit from the shows they own then they will do everything they can to make that happen, such as accelerating the S2 DVD release in response to unexpectedly hot sales of S1.

If they don't feel there is profit to be had they will not bother, however much we hardcore fans may want something.

The one thing I would like to see (and pronto) is some sort of video release, either VHS or DVD, of LotR in the UK. Given that success of the original show on video over here, the fact that it is brand new, never seen on TV, and the fact that our antipodean cousins have had a release, surely there is nothing to stop them getting on with that! Come on WHV!

Likewise, the official B5/Crusade magazine, whose days were effectively numbered as soon as Crusade was cancelled. There is only so much to be said about a show when nothing new is being made. If the publishers felt the mag would continue to be profitable I have no doubt that it would have continued. Simple commercial logic.

The one that does surprise me most to this day is the cancellation of Sierra's computer game. At the time of cancellation, several PC game mags had already run articles saying how they thought the game was likely to set a new standard in space combat and was being eagerly awaited by the gaming community even those that knew nothing of the show.

Given the amount of other stuff Sierra cancelled at the same time, my guess is that there were underlying issues within the company that required something to give. Yes, B5 got screwed by that, but I think it just happened to be at the wrong stage of development when the axe had to fall.

Sorry to rattle on so ... but I think we need to just step and acknowledge that sometimes the glass is indeed half full, not half empty.

Although it would be nice if it was completely full. Occasionally.

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

KoshN · Dec 16, 2002

Originally posted by GaribaldisHair: 
Why is everyone always so down on Warner Bros when it comes to B5?

<ul type="square">
[*] They're partly responsible for the series not being released fully on Laserdisc. So, I own a partial (55%), clean (no dust, scratched or hair marks), 4:3 collection that consists of all of Season 1, the first 12 episodes of Season 2, none of Season 3, the first 6 episodes of Season 4, all of Season 5, "The Gathering" and "In the Beginning."
[*] Instead of completing the 4:3 videodisc collection that was started with the Laserdiscs, they abandoned the 4:3 and are starting over with their "widescreen" DVDs which have cropped CGI/Composite CGI.
[*] They lost the Babylon 5 CGI files, which IMHO hurt the Rangers pilot, and destroys the chances of Crusade ever being continued.
[*] The care they showed in the storage of B5, and resultant dust, scratches and hair marks in the DVD video of "In the Beginning" and the Season 1 episodes. The fact that they didn't restore "In the Beginning" and the Season 1 episodes before releasing them on DVD.
[/list]

That about covers it. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

taichidave · Dec 16, 2002

I read the following in "Deadly Persuasion" by Jean Kilbourne:

"Although we like to think that advertising is unimportant, it is in fact the most important aspect of the mass media. It is the point... The media know that the television and radio programs are simply fillers for the space between commercials."

This is the clearest description of American television I have yet encountered.

PsiProne · Dec 17, 2002

Want your type and styles shown on TV, start your own company, be creative, let other sci-fi fans have a stake in that company, maybe the company could start its own cable network? It could have a sci-fi productions arm. Little forums like this are a tiny start, now use the advantage of internet workings as a tool for this business. Get other B5/sci-fi fans to donate. BUILD a sense of TRUST. Anyone interested? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why Does Babylon 5 Always Get Screwed???

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