And The Ground Sown With Salt (UK premiere)

Just seen this ep in the UK. Man am I shocked. I can't believe they actually screened trailers for it during Enterprise - I can't ever see a Trekker watching Jeremiah.

1. What's all this about the God thing? What on earth happened to respecting all religious opinions like we had in B5? Suddenly, God is dead, mankind has no choice but to make it on their own. Okay, Jeremiah's speech in "Man of Iron, Woman Under Glass" speech was pretty Okay, I can live with that. But all this stuff about Michael is a bit much. I found it to be very critical, and cruel to say the least.

2. I really got the feeling in this ep that for humanity all hope was lost - right up to and including the conclusion. What about JMS' previous statement that this show was about hope and being optimistic? Has that gone out of the window too? Wasn't anybody shocked about this???

Please tell me this show gets better before I lose all hope.

Oh, it's not optimistic from the beginning. A story has to go from point A to point B. This is point A.

Although there are distinct similarities with some plot points in B5, the two shows are really not that similar, nor should you expect them to be.

That said, it does get worse before it gets better.

But keep on watching. Please. You'll like the Captain Iron episode.

shocked..why? It's not a family show. This episode was very brutal but it was this because this episodes needed to be a brutal. It was mayor part of storytelling.

speaking of "darkness"...for me no show can be too dark. I like dark shows...it is entertainment and fiction, not a reality show.

1. I don't understand, why do you think respecting other religions went out of the window? Vorlons believed they were gods too, correct? Michael obviously suffering mentally from the big death ala captain iron, came to the conclusion that he can become a god. And he could, as what he said was correct, christianity was just a cult before the Roman emperor (C something, I always forget) decided it was fashionable. Which the romans then all followed as they looked up to the emperor as a god. However christianity had to change in order to fit this new fashion age, as the romans had their own traditions. As well as pagan traditions (christmas). He believed in God, but thought God was dead and that he was destined to be the Jesus of then, and ascend to godhood. Which is as logical as the bible, and not like their would be many teachers to tell him different as we do today. I found it realistic, the big death has brought about a new dark age... ramifications of that are obvious. But it is obviously going to get better, sooner or later (later considering this is a TV series). It could be argued that women were exploited in the first episode, and yes but that happens today let alone adding in a now stone/iron age like existense.

2. Eh? In the beginning of the shadow war it looked hopeless, and many times it looked like there was no hope. In steps lorien. And now I'm sure you look at b5 as a message of hope, as do most fans.

All in all, I thought it was a great episode. One regret I feel is the executions, I would have liked them to have been better directed, more graphic (as real life shootings are) and slightly better acted. Would feel it would have worked better. As well as the daisy cutter scene, I think Jeremiah's character would have lost control and launched himself at Michael (being dragged off perhaps by Kurdy and Michael being merciful in his own mind).

This episode isn't about "respecting other religions." It's about a delusional nutcase with a bunch of daisy-cutter bombs.

Many of the Roman emperors who believed they were gods were in actuality also clinical. I hate to say it, but a lot - not all - of the "cult of the emperor" came from a few delusional nutcases who actually believed that because they were emperor they were ascending to godhood. It wasn't very logical.

And, yeah. You can't expect Michael to see the world with the eyes of a theologian or even a teenager undergoing Confirmation. His religious experience is third-grade, meaning that he was taught that God loves him, that God will take care of him, and that God will always be there for him.

The Big Death was quite a betrayal of that. These guys don't HAVE Thomas Aquinas, and they can't reason through it, because they just don't know how. Add the fact that he's a certified delusional nutcase and you have a dangerous guy.

You can see more of that that in Jeremiah's thang in "Captain Iron," but I won't say more in case it hasn't been seen in the UK.

You can see more of that that in Jeremiah's thang in "Captain Iron," but I won't say more in case it hasn't been seen in the UK.

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Assuming you are referring to "Man of Iron, woman under glass" you are quite safe channe. That one was on last week.

but a lot - not all - of the "cult of the emperor" came from a few delusional nutcases who actually believed that because they were emperor they were ascending to godhood.

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Hmmm ... Emporer Cartagia anyone?

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First, I think Channe has been working too much since she doesn't seem to remember the order of the episodes anymore. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I am glad they showed trailers for Jeremiah during Enterprise since it gives our show more exposure. I would also be careful what you say about "Trekkers" and what the would and would not watch. (I have been a "Trekker" since the TNG days) I don't care very much for Enterprise but I do watch it because I give all ST shows a shot. I would hope that anyone who has been disappointed with Enterprise would give Jeremiah a try and realize there is a meaty story and interesting characters there.

I think the other people who have responded to your other points did a good job. If you are expecting B5 while watching Jeremiah, you will be sorely disappointed. Like Channe said, there are some similarities between the two, but JMS is definitely taking some of his themes in a different direction and from a different approach.

You should also remember that this last episode was just a snapshot of one man's interpretation of religion and what he chooses to do with it. It is supposed to be a powerful and shocking episode so I don't think there is anything wrong with your reaction to it. In fact, JMS would probably get a kick out of it since I suspect that was what he was hoping for. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The show definitely gets better and while there are many dark moments, there are also glimmers of hope as well. The first few episodes are pretty hard hitting but it does lighten up soon (partially because the Egan episodes will begin soon /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). In fact, the next episode ("To Sail...") is definitely more hopeful and if you can hang out until "Journeys End..." I think you will find that interesting since it takes a different perspective of religion and hope. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Constantine

You mean Constance (the girl in "Journeys End...")? Anyway, what about her? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I was answering Dark Lord's question.

I rememebr this episode and watching it with cerb. I tihnk it is more of one of his favorite ones if i remember. Yeah it does diss on religion a little but there are men, and women, now a days that try to create cults what is wrong with showing a little of the real world in an episode? Also not all religions are tought to respect or accept other religions, take muslims for example in the what 16th century, i think, they had a 'holy war' and converted people that were not born of the book(every religion except judhism, chirstanism and islamic) fro over a hundred years. Iron man was an ok episodes, i didnt read everyones post so i dont know if it got aired there or not but one thing i do remember of this episode is that JMS opened up for something later to happen down the road.
Also cerb just pointed out that this is just one guy from the world. Only one mans opinion and and this is just one place in the U.S. You got to open your mind up a little more. If there are no rules and laws and you had weapons of destruction you might think your god too. People have experiences that lead them to believe certain things, no matter how bizzarr it is.
You talk about respecting religion and stuff but in the a the a the a first show or season premier they encounter raceist people, the guys with shaved heads about to kill people form different ethnic backgrounds. My point is if your pointing it out in this episode you should of pointed it out in the first one.
Which reminds me of something, People in the mountain were so against umm the lead guy the guy in charge of Lee, I forget his name but anyway they were against him coming out and in that episode he went out and rescued people. wouldn't that be a great threat to him there?

*twitch* mmmyeah... lots of work... but the holidays are over, which is a good thing. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jeremiah is quite dark, but stick with it. By the end of Tripwire - coming up in a few weeks - you'll be begging for more!

-Tim

Good points, thanks everyone (sorry Lyta - didn't mean to offend Star Trek fans). This might end up getting all philisophical.

I don't know if a sci-fi show should be that raw and stark IMHO. For instance, if all you do is look at depressing shows it makes you depressed. And one thing you don't need being depressed with the state of our life/lives is to watch something on TV which is depressing. There's no solace in that, no escapism. You'd start to feel suicidal before long.

Or am I coming at this from the wrong angle? Do people watch Sci-fi for escapism?

Or am I coming at this from the wrong angle? Do people watch Sci-fi for escapism?

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People watch all kinds of things for escapism - soaps, reality shows, bond movies, whatever.

The point of escapism, surely, is to immerse yourself in someone else's world, rather than being stuck in your own. If it is done well (Blade Runner for example) a thoughtful, "depressing" piece of escapism is just as good, IMHO, as a shallow "feelgood" piece.

Or Die Hard!

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Shows with depressing situations can be uplifting, assuming the characters overcome those depressing situations.

I have been enjoying the show since it started on SKY. I will watch anything that is done by JMS, even if its watch paint dry.

It has been entertaining and I will continue to watch it. The casting of the two leads is very good and I love the fact that they talk like real people, ie loads of swearing. There are some inventive uses of the F word that I had never come across before.

One thing the show has got me doing is thinking. Silly things like if law and order has broken down how do you form a new government when everyone wants it for themselves.

And what in the world do they use for toilet paper, and everyone seems do be doing it with everyone, what are they useing for birth control?

Hmmm ... Emporer Cartagia anyone?

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Actually (and apologies if this has already been mentioned) this ep appears to be based on the Old Testament - the story of Abimelech and Shechem in the book of Judges, to be precise.

A brief recap; Abimelech is one of the sons of Gideon, and when his father dies he appoints himself King of Israel, effectively usurping God as spiritual leader of the Israelites. After much slaughter he eventually comes into conflict with a town called Shechem which he orders destroyed by fire, killing thousands. He then sows the fields with salt, and finally suffers the (to him) indignity of being killed by a woman! (she drops a rock on him).

Since we're only just getting J in the UK, I'd be interested to know if this has been pointed out before, or even confirmed/denied by JMS!

- Chris

Interesting take on the story and one I had not heard before. Then again, having never read the bible in it's entirety or being religious might have something to do with that.

Still, the title of the episode sure fits and we know JMS is pretty well versed in the Bible. Is that where the phrase originates from?

It is also what ancient Rome did to Carthage after the last Punic War in 94 BC.