NewbieQ: How is JMS prescient?

Please, most of you have watched this multiple times and would be better at this than I. These are relevant to current (iraq/af-whre?-istan) events, but I'm sure they were repeated throughout history, not to mention multiple time between 1995 - 2005

Things I can think of:

1) "You're either with us or you're against us"
2) torture scene
3) media distortion
4) Night Watch (stories of secret service checking out political dissenting art, kerry supporters fired)
5) civilians caught in the middle

1) "You're either with us or you're against us"

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Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader to Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar




God, I have no idea what this has to do with ANYTHING, but I felt a desire to post it anyway. Forgive me.

This is marginally Babylon 5-related. Othewise, I would send it into the News/Politics forum.

Much of the political story is based on events in Eastern Europe, Germany, and other historical events. I guess you could say that history repeats itself unless we pay attention. Or rather, we see similarities to the past - sometimes rightly, and some times we dream them up to support our own opinions.

1) "You're either with us or you're against us"

Where's this in Babylon 5? Perhaps you're referring to either being with the Vorlons or being with the Shadows? And how Sheridan rejected their power play games and the younger races decided that there was another way than the options placed before them?

Still, many of the viewers thought what Londo [Sorry, I should say "The Centauri" -edit] did was wrong. He let the Shadows have a base on the island of Salini. That didn't mean he was with the Shadows, now did it?

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend. "
Arab Proverb

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad"
Jesus of Nasareth (Matthew 12:30, KJV Bible)

2) torture scene

I liked Instersections in Real Time. Then, there's torture scenes in other episodes too.

There are several plays and books (fiction and non-fiction) dealing with or featuring torture.

I can't quite find a recent event that reminds me of Intersections in Real Time. When it comes to the Guantanamo situation that was investigated recently, I think this scene is the most similar:
"Do not thump the Book of G'Quan, it is disrespectful"- G'kar to Garibaldi

3) media distortion

Although painful to watch, The Illusion of Truth is one of my favourite B5 episodes. However, "And Now for a Word" contains more subtle signs of distortion, IIRC.

It would be kind of fun to write a fan fiction about the reaction to the ISN report in The Illusion of Truth. There were other TV channels, but I don't think there were many open discussion forums and "blogs" back at earth. There might have been some encrypted underground networks like the Freenet Project where sceptics could debate the tapes and confirm their suspicions. A kind of Moorewatch for the Third Age of mankind.

4) Night Watch

The National Socialist references are obvious. Especially how only members of Night Watch could hold certain positions; reminds me of the Nazi party members taking over police cheif positions in Norway during the German occupation. But there's lesser known, and equally fitting, parallels to Eastern Germany: Patriot movements with compulsory membership, and secret police informers.

How do groups like the "Guardian Angels" fit into this, by the way? In my country they're called "Night Ravens". All they do is be present out in the night life and suppress violence among drunk people just by being present.

stories of secret service checking out political dissenting art"

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Yes, because your quirky laws say that making death threats against the President is illegal. Imagine the concept. The secret service check wether it's a credible threat or just another teenager talking tough.

kerry supporters fired

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From private businesses? Wouldn't that be the basis for a wrongful termination suit? When it comes to hiring, the employers are rather free to discriminate as they want, except against religion, gender and race.

5) civilians caught in the middle

In about every major war since WWI, more civilians than soldiers were killed. It's sad. And it's why I'm really thankful for the Fourth Geneva Convention

By the way, does anybody remember past discussion threads about these questions? Perhaps we could link to them. I suspect that we might be going over ground that's been covered here before.

History repeats itself.

I don't know if it's related to what you are saying, but G'Kar uses the term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" during "And Now for a Word"

We all know when that was most recently used!

History repeats itself.

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Has to ... no one listens.

Still, many of the viewers thought what Londo did was wrong. He let the Shadows have a base on the island of Salini. That didn't mean he was with the Shadows, now did it?

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Can you clarify on this please. Londo didn't allow the Shadows to set up a base on Salini, in fact he tried to talk Cartagia, who had made the decision to let the Shadows set up a base, out of the decision.

Yup. Londo forged the unholy alliance, and did some damage to the Narn, but didn't like the way things were going so he broke off ties. Then Refa/Cartagia picked the alliance back up, and Refa made that decision. Londo was left to clean up the Shadow poo.

Still, many of the viewers thought what Londo did was wrong. He let the Shadows have a base on the island of Salini. That didn't mean he was with the Shadows, now did it?

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Can you clarify on this please. Londo didn't allow the Shadows to set up a base on Salini, in fact he tried to talk Cartagia, who had made the decision to let the Shadows set up a base, out of the decision.

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Of course. How could I forget something as central to the story as that.

My point was that allowing the Shadows to be on Centauri Prime was helping them. That made the Centauri the enemy of both Sheridan's alliance and the Vorlons.

1) "You're either with us or you're against us"

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Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader to Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar




God, I have no idea what this has to do with ANYTHING, but I felt a desire to post it anyway. Forgive me.

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WOW!! As soon as i read that first post thats exactly what i thought (probably due to i watched it last night), then i scroll down to find someone else has said it.

"Only a sith deals in absolute" - Sorry i also know this has nothing to do with B5 but i felt like putting it anyway.

Remeber, this comes from the guy that's going to give that "from a certain point of view" speech....

I love how after Obi-Wan says, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," he then says, "I will do what I must," which in terms of word-choice reflects back to The Phantom Menace in which Qui-Gon says "I will do what I must, Obi-Wan" in reference to going against the Council's wishes regarding Anakin. I don't think there's probably any meaning connection between the two uses, but the word-choice similarity kinda gets to me for some reason.

"Only a sith deals in absolute" - Sorry i also know this has nothing to do with B5 but i felt like putting it anyway.

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Funny, I saw it twice and I thought it was, "Only a Jedi deals in absolutes." But of course, yeah, you're right. But it does work either way, doesn't it. Anakin really did save the Jedi; from themselves and from the dark side. He killed all the Jedi headed down the [depending on how you look at it] corrupt path of being judge, jury, and executioner. Benign dictators in a way. Certainly a military police of a sort. AND he killed the Emperor. He is allowing a fresh start for the Jedi with neither the strict monk-like precoceptions and rules of the Old Knights, nor the complete disregard for life and liberty embodied in the Dark Side.

"Only a sith deals in absolute" - Sorry i also know this has nothing to do with B5 but i felt like putting it anyway.

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Funny, I saw it twice and I thought it was, "Only a Jedi deals in absolutes." But of course, yeah, you're right. But it does work either way, doesn't it. Anakin really did save the Jedi; from themselves and from the dark side. He killed all the Jedi headed down the [depending on how you look at it] corrupt path of being judge, jury, and executioner. Benign dictators in a way. Certainly a military police of a sort. AND he killed the Emperor. He is allowing a fresh start for the Jedi with neither the strict monk-like precoceptions and rules of the Old Knights, nor the complete disregard for life and liberty embodied in the Dark Side.

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Luke is now Jedi (at the end of video things we know of ), from all the talk in the movies, it really wasn't that hard to become Sith, just use the Dark Side of the Force? One of the main unanswered questions I have is

Why can there be only 2 frelling Sith if the Dark Side is seemingly so easy to tap into? Just get pissed!!! Where do Sith apprentices come from? Bad Jedi? What, only one bad Jedi at a time? And then only when the apprentice/master is about to get offed? Who/what was Darth Maul? Why would the Jedi Council even think of not training Annakin? What, he would be less destructive as a loose cannon without any guidance? He still was "strong in the Force" . If he wasn't trained, would/should he have been eliminated? Rant over, Any answers?


Oh yeah, he killed ALL the jedi, except Yoda. And Luke and Leia. If the Force was genetic in nature, its hard to explain the" Yoda " race, as i wouldnt bet they were compatible with (possibly) Human stock, thought there are those stories of Princesses kissing frogs.

Where do Sith apprentices come from? Bad Jedi? What, only one bad Jedi at a time?

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There's a difference between a bad Jedi, a bad Force-sensitive person, and a Sith. Being a Sith is about more than just having powers and killing people, it's a philosophy and organization. Just being a Jedi who turns to the Darkside doesn't make that Jedi now a Sith.

Why can there be only 2 frelling Sith if the Dark Side is seemingly so easy to tap into?

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There was once a whole hell of a lot more Sith in existance, but thousands of years ago, the Jedi were able to wipe most of them out. I believe they killed all but one, who began training only a single apprentice in order to try and keep their remaining presence in the galaxy a secret from the Jedi, with their desired revenge being to wipe out the Jedi and control the galaxy, which Sidious and Vader eventually accomplished (for a while).

But the nature of the Sith caused them to always be in pursuit of more power -- and pursuit to be in control of things. So this led to the apprentice eventually killing his master and assuming the position of senior Sith. And with this occurring again and again the Sith became stuck in a position of always plotting against each other. The Master would always be seeking a more powerful apprentice, and the apprentice would always be plotting to kill the Master.

Look at just the original trilogy, if you want. The Emperor is the Master with Vader being his apprentice. But once they learn about Luke, they both want Luke to be their own Sith apprentice. The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader and assume his place. Vader wants Luke to help him kill the Emperor and he and Luke rule the galaxy.

Who/what was Darth Maul?

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He was just some Force-sensitive person that Sidious trained as a Sith that Sidious used as nothing more than a pawn.

Why would the Jedi Council even think of not training Annakin?

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Because of how strict the Jedi Code was, Anakin's age and life experience created in Anakin a person too easily capable of forming attachments to other people, which would compromise his duty as a Jedi. Forming of attachments fuels the ego, and can cause a person to live for something other than selfless service, which is what the Jedi were supposed to exist for.

What, he would be less destructive as a loose cannon without any guidance? He still was "strong in the Force"

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His being trained to use his connection to the Force gave him his powers, if he wasn't trained then he would be Force-sensitive still, but not skilled in using it, so he would be less likely to be able to hurt anyone with it. Similarly, a person might have a considerable natural talent for music, but if they're never trained and their talent developed by the learning and application of skills, then that person wouldn't be able to really use their talents. Same with Anakin, he might would always be able to pilot very well, but he wouldn't be able to fight with great skill, use telekinesis to move anything large, or have access to any other major Jedi and Sith skills without being trained.

Oh yeah, he killed ALL the jedi, except Yoda. And Luke and Leia. If the Force was genetic in nature, its hard to explain the" Yoda " race, as i wouldnt bet they were compatible with (possibly) Human stock

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I don't get this statement at all. What does Luke and Leia being human Force-sensitives have anything to do with Yoda's species?

I think fisheggs thinks the midi-chlorians that dictate force sensitivity, are part of the human genome, and any species that is force sensitive, only has that benefit due to interbreeding with humans.

However, the original trilogy clearly states that the Forces permeates and surrounds all living things. It's not restricted by any species DNA profile per se.

Who/what was Darth Maul?

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He was just some Force-sensitive person that Sidious trained as a Sith that Sidious used as nothing more than a pawn.

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I know this has gone WAY off topic, but one thing confuses me. If Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice, does that mean he didn't start being trained until after Maul was dead? Wasn't he rather old to be an apprentice?

I think fisheggs thinks the midi-chlorians that dictate force sensitivity, are part of the human genome, and any species that is force sensitive, only has that benefit due to interbreeding with humans.

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From everything I've read, the concept of midi-chlorians was taken after our own real-life existing midochondria, which, despite being a part our bodies, have their own little DNA seperate from our own DNA.

If Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice, does that mean he didn't start being trained until after Maul was dead? Wasn't he rather old to be an apprentice?

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Correct. Dooku didn't turn to the Darkside and begin his training under Sidious until after Maul was killed. From what I'm given to understand, Dooku had been becoming somewhat disillusioned with the politics of the Republic and with the Jedi's place within the Republic. Qui-Gon's death was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for Dooku, causing him to leave the Jedi Order. Additionally, Nute Gunray went to Dooku and informed him about the existance of a Sith in control of the Senate, which is how Dooku came to eventually come in contact with Sidious and eventually became his new apprentice.

Since Dooku had already received extensive training as a Jedi, his skills were already considerable, and that enabled him to jump right in when it came to getting new training in the use of the Darkside.