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Shadows and Minbari

KoshFan

Regular
I was just skimming through a summary of "Matters of Honor" and it mentioned the scene at the end where Endawi delivers his report and then Morden appears after Endawi's left. They decide that none of the major races know anything except the Narn, which the Centauri have "taken care of."

Now, my question is this: surely the Shadows didn't think the Minbari would simply have forgotten them? Delenn does say that she's never seen a Shadow ship before, but the Shadows couldn't be assuming that the Minbari simply forgot everything. Especially as Delenn hustles Morden out of her chamber very quickly in "Signs and Portents."

And of course the Vorlons wouldn't have forgotten, and had already seen the Shadows at work: again, Signs and Portents, the famous encounter of Morden and Kosh. The Shadows were probably banking on the normal Vorlon reticence, but the Vorlons and the Minbari go way back. I'd think the Shadows could have put two and two together and realized they weren't going undetected.
 
Well, maybe the Shadows knew somehow about the Minbari kinda drifting away from the need to watch for their return. I remember from watching "In the Beginning" that Lenonn and his Rangers were few in number and weren't paid much attention to by anyone else in the Minbari government. So it would seem to me that there was a lot of apathy on Minbar in regard to the Shadows. Perhaps the Shadows realized this and just kinda figured that the Minbar weren't really a threat and that their own apathy might do them in.
 
You're assuming that Morden is telling the trugh to the Earth Senator and the Psi Cop. I'd never assume that Morden is telling the truth. The whole thrust of Earth's actions at this point indicate that they are totally ignorant of the Shadows - despite the fact that they are already working with them in the form of Morden.

The Shadow's greatest fear in all the wars is the inevitable attempt to form an alliance against them. Their worst nightmare would be an alliance between the Minbari and the Humans - the oldest and most technologically advanced of the Younger Races with the most dynamic and ceative. They certainly wouldn't want to indicate to the Humans that the Minbari know all about these mysterious spacecraft - that might overcome the suspicion remaining from the E-M war and encourage the Humans to work more closely with the Shadow's prime enemy. (Hence Morden's interest in the Psi Cop's idea about using the Shadow ship to increase the perceived "alien threat" and thereby increase Clarke's power.)

I think much of the Shadow effort on Earth, the alliance with the evil, paranoid and venal Clarke, the infiltration of Psi Corps, etc., is designed to prevent an Earth-Minbar alliance. Naturally they have to keep this manipulation and the reason behind it a secret, so Morden pretends to know nothing about the Shadows, discourages Earth from looking for answers where they most likely lie, and manipulates the Minbari warrior caste to the same end. Morden hasn't forgotten anything, he's simply lying to one of his victims, at the behest of his masters.

Regards,

Joe
 
I like your ideas, Joe, but one minor problem -- Earth already knew about the Shadows. Knew about 'em several years prior to the events of the show, as shown in Messages From Earth. Parts of EarthGov were of course completely in the dark (Endawi truly knew nothing, for example) but other parts surely knew. And Earth also got a fair ammount of tech from the Shadows.

I think the Shadows were definitely trying to prevent an alliance between Humans and Minbari, but I think they did so by hyping xenophobia on Earth and promising a massive jump ahead in tech. This is often mentioned as a goal by the unscrupulous that we see in the show. Why is this so important to Earth? Probably because they felt so technologically inferior to the Minbari in the war. A little dose of basic dislike left over from the war, a little dose of outright fear, and viola! Elements of EarthGov and elements of PsiCorps (not including Mr. Bester, of course) turn to the Shadows to make up the tech difference.

I'd never thought about Shadow influence on the Warrior Caste, but it's fairly obvious, isn't it? Deathwalker could have been the agent.

Now that I think about it, it's probable that the Shadows didn't think the Minbari would forget. They just tried to isolate the Minbari -- collaborating with Earth and the Centauri and using the Centauri to eliminate the Narn. The Shadows also used the Centauri as distractions to their accelerating campaign -- so I guess they were gambling that self-interest would override any Minbari calls for an alliance. Although with Vorlon backup the Minbari would still have given them a run for their money. And of course the Warrior Caste played directly into their hands by making the Grey Council disproportionally Warrior.

Although I wonder how many of the Warrior Caste went and joined the Rangers or something after Delenn broke the council.
 
Right, somehow that little "Mars ship" thing slipped my mind. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong about that scene. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif We don't know who in EarthGov knows what. Obviously the scientists involved, parts of Psi Corps and the perhaps the ever-mutating Bureau 13 know about the Shadows and their ships. Others know nothing at all, some know that we have found alien technology and are using it, but don't know where it is from, etc. And, again, even if the Senator and the Psi Cop in that scene know that the Shadows exist, it doesn't follow that they know about the history of the Shadow-Vorlon conflict, the Minbari's role as the Vorlon's allies, or any of the rest of it. So it could still make sense that Morden is lying to them about who knows what. They don't know about the Minbari. He doesn't want them to know for fear that some "uncontrolled" part of EarthGov might go to them with inconvenient questions, or even that his allies might act percipitously against them. Lots of reasons beyond a slip-up for Morden to behave as he does in that scene.

Regards,

Joe
 
Good point, the anti-Minbari xenophobe faction could go off and attack the Minbari with the new Shadow tech, revealing to the Minbari that Earth had fallen under Shadow influnece... and likely resulting in a repeat of the Battle of the Line, with the Shadows and the Vorlons taking a hand. Probably not useful for the Shadows, as they seemed to have plans for us Humans.
 
Well the Psi Corps, is by far the most efficient means of getting your hands on large quantities of telepath, even if they are all blips. So the Shadows wouldn't want to lose that edge. No sense in culling your best crop.

The main reason the Shadows wanted the Narn out of the way was because they had recorded in their history how to beat the Shadows.... i.e the Book of G'Quan's various references to the mind-walkers.

The Minbari must have have had a "closer" relationship with the vorlons (mainly because of their stance towards order and structure "understanding is not required, only obedience") so the Shadows would have probably avoided Minbar, for fear of bringing in stronger vorlon influence on their side, like technological donations. I think the Vorlons were grooming the Minbari to be their personal Drakh.
 
Interesting notion. I think that the Vorlons were too secretive for that, though. The Shadows had the Drakh and other races on their team; the Vorlons seemed to just pick up individuals, for example Sebastian and Lyta. The Vorlon Homeworld's off limits for a million years, yet the Shadows let all their allies onto Z'ha'dum. Of course, the Vorlons did give the Minbari some tech anyway.

I'm also still a bit puzzled about how the Minbari won the last war. The Narn telepaths with a little Vorlon assistance were able to drive the Shadows off their world, losing their lives in the process, and this was remembered. The Minbari in the present day, on the other hand, didn't know anything about telepaths being useful. So how did they win the last war? I really wish that the tale of Valen could be told some day.

And why did the Shadows want telepaths for their ships, anyway? Did they hope that by using telepaths they could eliminate the weakness of their ships (blocking the telepathic attacks, etc.)?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I'm also still a bit puzzled about how the Minbari won the last war.

[/quote]

The Minbari had more help last time, from the Vorlons and from others among the First Ones who still interacted directly with the Younger Races. Evidently in the past wars there had been other races on one side or the other, or maybe just on the sidelines as referees. This would have helped keep things within the rules. Don't forget, there were rules, this was more like a game than an all-out war. Presumably there was some agreed on thing that would constitute "victory" for each side and the end of that round of the "game". If the Shadows totally destroyed the loyalty of the Alliance and reduced everything to chaos, they "won". Both sides would withdraw for between 1 and 10 thousand years and allow the galaxy to recover. If the Alliance could hold together long enough to drive the Shadows from Z'ha'dum, they would "win". As powerful as the Shadows and their ships were, if the Alliance had enough lesser ships they could still be beaten.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
And why did the Shadows want telepaths for their ships, anyway? Did they hope that by using telepaths they could eliminate the weakness of their ships (blocking the telepathic attacks, etc.)?

[/quote]

Exactly.

Regards,

Joe
 
So if Morden had every intention of telling his Earth contacts that no one of the other races knew anything concrete about the Shadows, what would have happened if Endawi had returned with someone's confession of knowledge of them? Did Morden predect the responses of the ambassadors that well, did someone else send Endawi and Morden just had to hope and play off whatever the result was? And how would the Earth agenda have changed if Endawi had found proof and Morden was forced to admitt it - unless he could come up with some lie to explain it?

As for how the previous Alliance beat the Shadows ... well, we also have to remember that at least in that war the full resources of many governments and many races - including major ones - were involved. In the 2259-61 war, none of the major governments fronted much in the war effort. Earth was on the side of the Shadows - though they did not fight much; other B5 and maybe a few rogue ships / colonies, the EA didn't do anything. The Centauri were even more in legue with the Shadows. The Narn only had a few ships surviving the war with the Centauri. The Minbari Grey Council had been apathetic and Delenn broke it resulting in the Warrior caste and their huge military resource and skills staying out of the way - other than those which might have joined the Anla'shok. Some of the Legue worlds joined (most? all? We never know how many Legue races there are) but we're usually given the impression they aren't very strong compared to the major races. Still, the new Alliance managed to hold its own and survive long enough to finally end the wars. If they could, full military strength of the past could too.
 
I suspect that in past Shadow wars, weapons were pretty conventional. It was just Shadows trying to stir things up (regardless of price)... Vorlons trying to calm things down (regardless of price)... and both sides trying to prove they were right.

And of course, those in between trying to continue their lives. Given incomplete information, this hope often failed. However, with the Shadow war which happened around 1200, one difference appeared. There were two people (Valen and Zathras) who were extremely well informed.

If the Shadows used conventional means, and tried playing various worlds against each other, the resources available to Valen would have sufficed, especially if coordinated with some knowledge about the future.
 
What is scary, is the thought that of all the known races, to their knowledge, have only been involved in one shadow war. How may races bought it as a consequence od the Vorlon and Shadow strategies.

It is possible that the other races could have been manipulated pre-inter stellar capability like the Narn, in Earth's timeline, the most recent would have been around the time of the Crusades and several plagues.
 
I have always suspected...

...that some races survived numerous Shadow wars. Perhaps the first on their own planet, like the Narn. Perhaps the second as active fighters, like the Minbari. Should they live after witnessing one more round, they would be highly motivated to escape...

...and that's what I suspect they did. By the time a new round was starting, I suspect that races of intermediate age would abandon their home, take their civilisation and stuff, hop onboard and hit the throttle.

Having seen older and more powerful worlds going down, never getting up again... why test their luck? Better leave. I even suspect that without the quirks and oddities induced by that practising psychohistorian called Valen, the Minbari might have left too (if they would have survived).

Left and withdrawn to ensure their own safety, because having seen several consecutive returns of the Shadows, after they thought they were safe... they would no loger hope this trouble could be stopped.

In my opinion, an essential part of this story is the opinion... that regardless of odds, people can hope to defuse even conflicts which are older than them. With enough trying and luck, the impossible may be possible.
 
I have always suspected...

...that some races survived numerous Shadow wars. Perhaps the first on their own planet, like the Narn. Perhaps the second as active fighters, like the Minbari. Should they live after witnessing one more round, they would be highly motivated to escape...

...and that's what I suspect they did. By the time a new round was starting, I suspect that races of intermediate age would abandon their home, take their civilisation and stuff, hop onboard and hit the throttle.

Having seen older and more powerful worlds going down, never getting up again... why test their luck? Better leave. I even suspect that without the quirks and oddities induced by that practising psychohistorian called Valen, the Minbari might have left too (if they would have survived).

Left and withdrawn to ensure their own safety, because having seen several consecutive returns of the Shadows, after they thought they were safe... they would no loger hope this trouble could be stopped.

In my opinion, an essential part of this story is the opinion... that regardless of odds, people can hope to defuse even conflicts which are older than them. With enough trying and luck, the impossible may be possible.

the problem with that is what are the chances that a race remembers AND believes in the shadows after 1-10 thousand years? the Minbari were starting to question the legends of the shadows after a mere 900ish years. after 9,900 years.....
 
A couple things that I just thought about which may have aided in the victory of the previous war :

1 - I got the impression that the Vorlons didn't actively engage in the war until Valen appeared. If that is so, they likely turned the tide / caught the Shadow forces off guard. Which would have been enough to tip the scales.

2 - The impression of the Vorlons also being 'crippled' by the last war is also evident. Therefore they may have taken heavy casualities to ensure the victory.

I do like the explanation that the war was won on a condition, not dominance though. That the alliance of multiple races was the key factor which would eventually win the war.

Another little thought In War with End Part I; the Shadows are still defeated in the past even if Valen doesn't appear, yet are stronger, more aggressive with their reappearance. That says that the forces in the first war where eventually strong enough to win, but not be as effective at doing so.

... good points? Good question.
 
...and that's what I suspect they did. By the time a new round was starting, I suspect that races of intermediate age would abandon their home, take their civilisation and stuff, hop onboard and hit the throttle.
{snip}
Moving a race is very difficult and likely to take hundreds of years. You also have to move somewhere that the Shadows cannot find. The Shadows set neighbours against neighbours. Everyone has a neighbour, some are just further away.
 
Those on the outer reaches of the galaxy... have few neigbours, and are difficult to reach. Those beyond can opt to have none.

Moreover, experience of a thousand years in interstellar travel... would hopefully yield a level of mobility which makes civilization portable. You pack it up, and take it along.

So perhaps, civilizations which had survived a few Shadow wars... did not all succumb, but moved away from recurring danger. Into a more reasonable galaxy somewhere beyond the Rim.

After you think about it, the Magellanic Cloud is not that far.
 

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