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Shadows and Time Travel

Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

It could have come from a different world than the present of the characters we saw - a world visible/accessible though the rift, but not capable of swapping out the present, since that could possibly require infinite energy.

According to some approaches to the paradoxes of time travel, if B4 had not departed, the present might have just continued rolling on, while another world would never see Valen arrive, and presumably in that world, B5 would also fall.

Or perhaps that world would even never exist, and Sinclair's / Zathras' choice to travel and other's choices to help them actually created it?

That in turn would have the shortcoming of having to explain where B4 and Valen in the depicted world of B5 had come from. They had come from somewhere, but was there causality present in the process, and would they need to go too, or could one world just enjoy an unexplained trade surplus of space stations? Would it mean that another world would have a deficit, and it would be ethical to share extra space stations with them by traveling there?

However, and especially since B4 took two jumps, trying to speculate about time travel is something I quickly fail at... just a too convoluted system, and no good description of the nature of time in reach. :D

And I still haven't got to the seemingly inevitable (but possibly impossible) differences in details of how and when Sinclair would depart, and the question of whether those would influence the process, and whether the world is deterministic or not, or whether the question of world-level determinism is a moot point anyway. :D

So I can say to myself: it's all a story anyway, and not meant to resolve to clarity. :)
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

If Valen/Sinclair had not gone back in time the Vorlons would not have know that Babylon 5 needed building. Ivanova's broadcast from the future is the one outcome that is actually impossible.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

The Vorlons might have signed on as a council member, but they didn't create the Babylon Project. It was a human conception in the wake of the Earth-Minbari War (unless there is something in one of the books I'm not remembering). Besides, we don't really know what exactly caused the construction of Babylon 5 in the not-truly-existant alternatime of Ivanova's message, but it could very easily have been anything. Vorlons schmorlons.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

I think we are getting in deep enough now to dismantle the time loop of Sinclair/Valen's life ...

If Sinclair hadn't taken B4 back in time and become Valen, then the Vorlons wouldn't have persuaded Delenn to call a halt to the Earth-Minbari War, so there would have been no Babylon Project. Period.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

The Vorlons might have signed on as a council member, but they didn't create the Babylon Project. It was a human conception in the wake of the Earth-Minbari War (unless there is something in one of the books I'm not remembering). Besides, we don't really know what exactly caused the construction of Babylon 5 in the not-truly-existant alternatime of Ivanova's message, but it could very easily have been anything. Vorlons schmorlons.

As much manipulation as the Vorlons and Shadows pulled, I don't think it's much of a stretch that building the stations could've been a Vorlon inspired thought. All it would take would be a couple words to the right person about it being a good idea (They may have used the idea of rpeventing a new major war, or a trade suggestion, etc)
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

If Sinclair hadn't taken B4 back in time and become Valen, then the Vorlons wouldn't have persuaded Delenn to call a halt to the Earth-Minbari War, so there would have been no Babylon Project. Period.

The Vorlons didn't persuade Delenn to end the war. She wanted to end the war, but couldn't find an excuse. She decided to question a Human pilot and the Vorlons merely dropped a vague hint about "the truth point[ing] to itself." Even when they brought Sinclair aboard, Delenn had no idea how to end the war and was not attempting to do so. She was as surprised by anybody when the Triluminary glowed. She used this as an excuse to end the War, but that was her idea. Not the Vorlons.

We don't know what shape the "present" might have had absent Sinclair/Valen. We do know that Minbari culture would be nothing like it is in the B5 universe. It is possible that "those" Minbari would still have found themselves in a war with the Humans that took a different course and had a different outcome, but which still would have led to the Humans starting the Babylon Project. (Without the peace and unity imposed on the castes by Valen, the Minbari might not have advanced nearly as much in the intervening 1,000 years and thus been far weaker adversaries for the Humans.) Presumably all the rest of galactic and Human history would be the about the same (the Minbari were already fighting the Shadows before Valen arrived, Sheridan, Sinclair and Franklin were all in EarthForce, Ganya could still have died and inspired Susan to enlist in his place, so everybody could be approximately where the message shows them being in 2260.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

One thing about the scene you just described Joe D that I always liked.

I have always thought that the entire thing was very circular. I love that kind of story telling. Some people have said over the years "man, the Humans really got lucky that the Minbar snatched up Sinclair. If it would have been anyone else, the Triluminary wouldn't have glowed." The way I have always believed that worked is that it didn't matter WHO the Minbari picked up. Any pilot would have caused it to glow, caused the Minbari to watch over that person, groom them behind the scenes, and eventually find out that person became Valen. Sinclair was just a guy for the most part and it turned out it was him.

As he said in "WWE Part II": "Ive always gone back, and I always will"

I thought it was cool and took it to be one of those self-perpetuating prophecies.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

Some people have said over the years "man, the Humans really got lucky that the Minbar snatched up Sinclair. If it would have been anyone else, the Triluminary wouldn't have glowed."

And those people would have been wrong. :) Somewhere along the line, either in Lennier's recap for Sheridan, In the Beginning or "Atonement" it is revealed that after Sinclair was probed with the Triluminary other Human pilots were probed as wel and with the same result. So the Triluminary didn't glow merely for Sinclair's DNA, but for Human DNA period. (Which makes sense given that only a tiny fraction of a percent of DNA separates any two Humans.)

And this reinforces your theory: Any Human pilot who called attention to himself at that moment (it was Sinclair's decision to ram that made Delenn notice him) would have been watched over, brought to Minbar and ultimately sent to his destiny.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

Yea you are right about Lennier saying that other pilots were later taken for testing. I guess I should have worded things better, but you got the jist of what I was saying, in that if any other human pilot had somehow drawn attention to himself, that pilot would have been the one to eventually command B5 (at the Minbari's request) and eventually go back with B4 and be Valen.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

So any human would have triggered the Triluminary... and the way the Minbari would have distinguished said human from the rest of the herd (as they did) was because the Triluminary would have responded to the DNA of its former owner... namely Valen. Except of course Valen would have been the first human they encountered, no matter what....

It's a good thing they got Sinclair, though. Imagine if they'd gotten, say, one of the creepy Minbari war vets from "Ceremonies of Light and Dark."
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

and the way the Minbari would have distinguished said human from the rest of the herd (as they did) was because the Triluminary would have responded to the DNA of its former owner.

Sinclair was the first tested. As far as the Minbari were concerned, the reaction of the Triluminary meant he had a Minbari soul - probably a Great Minbari soul, possibly Valen's or part of it - because only Valen's seed affected the Triluminaries. When the other Humans reacted in a similar way the only conclusion they could have reached (given that nobody knew anything about DNA being involved until after Sinclair went back in time) was that the other Humans also had pieces of Valen's soul or other Minbar Souls nearly as Great.

They invested Sinclair with the greatest importance because he had provided the sign that led them to stop the fratricidal war - he was the truth that pointed to itself. Apart from that their was intially nothing to distinguish him from any other Humans, and if a different Human had been taken first it is entirely possible that he or she would have become Valen.

And we don't know that the Triluminary used to probe Valen was the one Sinclair used to transform into Valen. There were three of them. He could have used any of them, and the Minbari could have probed hiim with any of them.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

I wonder if it's a specific sequence in human DNA thatthe triluminary picks up on, rather than the human genome.

Delenn triggers the triluminary response before her transformation, we know she is a descendant of Valen so she already has some human DNA before she goes into her chrysalis. She obviously has nowhere near enough DNA to be distinguishable from a run of the mill minbari... so perhaps there are just a handful of genes not present in minbari but present in humans, that the triluminary reacts to.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

I feel there was at least one spot in the arc (Not sure if TV, Novels, or which) where Sinclair caused a stronger reaction from the Trilum than anyone else did?
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

That part is a bit fuzzy. Its not that it reacted stronger to him per-say. Its that (from the clips of In the Begining) that they knew he didn't only have a Minbari soul, but the soul of Valen. Since comments were made in a prior episode about them taking and testing other Earthforce Pilots, one can assume that those test came out as having a Minbari soul, but obviously NOT the soul of Valen. So, from a logic standpoint, you would have to assume that somehow the test result was different for Sinclair and the rest of the pilots tested, but its never stated HOW it was different.

Personally, I think it was a bit of a goof. I think either JMS meant/should have, left the comment out, about other pilots being tested, whereby the Minbari would have just discovered that Sinclair had Valen's soul, OR when In the Begining was filmed, they should have left OUT the part where the Trilum detected Valens Soul, and merely stated that he had a Minbari one, and decided to watch him.
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

That part is a bit fuzzy. Its not that it reacted stronger to him per-say. Its that (from the clips of In the Begining) that they knew he didn't only have a Minbari soul, but the soul of Valen. Since comments were made in a prior episode about them taking and testing other Earthforce Pilots, one can assume that those test came out as having a Minbari soul, but obviously NOT the soul of Valen. So, from a logic standpoint, you would have to assume that somehow the test result was different for Sinclair and the rest of the pilots tested, but its never stated HOW it was different.

Personally, I think it was a bit of a goof. I think either JMS meant/should have, left the comment out, about other pilots being tested, whereby the Minbari would have just discovered that Sinclair had Valen's soul, OR when In the Begining was filmed, they should have left OUT the part where the Trilum detected Valens Soul, and merely stated that he had a Minbari one, and decided to watch him.

Yea, I think that's it. Sinclair specifically being credited with Valen's soul, and others only being credited with Minbari souls
 
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)

There was not even unanimous agreement that Sinclair had a Minbari soul, and some of those who accepted that idea rejected the idea that he had Valen's (or part of Valen's) soul. (Don't forget, Lenneir says their greatest souls were being reborn, "in whole or in part" in Humans.)

So it was never that case that Sinclair was solely and uniquely identified with Valen by all Minbari or even by all aboard the Grey Council ship. Some members of the religious caste and Council took that view, others rejected it.

Regards,

Joe
 
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