Season 5 if Claudia had not left....

JMS has stated several times that if Claudia Christian had not left the show she would have been the one that inspired romantic feelings in Byron.
I just wondered if JMS would have used the same dialogue if Byron was trying to woo Ivanova. Would she have been impressed with the willow tree lines?
Would she have joined in the singing and the hugging with all the other telepaths? Most important, would she have gotten involved in the famous love scene?
I don't think so.

Ivanova might have been intrigued for a short time, especially if her telepathic abilities were enhanced, but Byron would never, never have replaced Marcus in her affections.
I hated the whole telepath plot so much that it just pains me to think of what might have been.
Any suggestions?

You said the B word...never say the B word... *shudders*

I wish Ivonova would have stayed on. She was great! But...oh well.

*shudders again at the thought of the B word*

Im pretty sure Ivanova would have been to Byron as what Lochley was to Byron. Byron was so obviously getitng into her head romantically for the first few eps, especially the first one. Im sure Lyta's relationship with Byron still would ahve turned out the way it did.


TJ

Im sure Lyta's relationship with Byron still would ahve turned out the way it did.

Click to expand...

Nah, I think JMS has been pretty clear about this... that Lyta would have admired Byron from afar but just become his disciple, not lover.

As for the love scene - I doubt it would have happened, or at least happened like that. The major reason for having the Byron-Lyta love scene seemed to be (in addition to being a major gross-out /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif ) the discovery Byron and the other teeps made about the Vorlons and the engineering of telepaths. (I wonder if this was also the reason why it had to be so disgustingly non-private... to let the whole bunch of them find out about it at the same time.)

Had Ivanova been involved with Byron, the most Byron could have found out by having sex with her was her low level of telepathy, but there would have been lots of easier ways to get that out in the open. And I suppose Lyta would have let Byron and the gang know about the Vorlon thing some other way.

For Ivanova's sake, I'm almost glad she left and didn't have to get involved with Byron. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Although, of course, it would have helped the story to have her there.

*shudders at Ivanova and Byron together*

I can't see Ivanova falling for such a loser. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I'm kinda glad she left too, so we were spared her future relationship with Byron. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

There's somone to shudder with me! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think most of us are shuddering at that. Ivanova was too cool to fall for that dork. Eeeew! /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I'm afraid Ivanova *would* have for Byron. She always says that she had bad luck with relationships, and she'd come to the conclusion that she wanted Marcus just as he died. True love had just shown up, and she'd delayed too long before grabbing at it.

Here's a chariasmatic guy who's kinda like Marcus . . . if anything had happened, Ivanova would have gone for it. And of course, the real tragedy would be that it wouldn't quite have worked, underscoring the tragedy of not hooking up with Marcus.

I feel bad for her, and I kinda hope she found someone after she became Ranger One.

Had Ivanova been involved with Byron, the most Byron could have found out by having sex with her was her low level of telepathy

Click to expand...

That's not entirely true, Byron could have found out from Ivanova that Sheridan used Human telepaths to stop Clark's Shadow vessels. Finding out the Vorlon conspiracy was not as important for Byron's CHARACTER as finding out that the Teep's were cannon fodder, but got NO r-e-s-p-e-c-t period!

I think one reason most people don't like Byron as seen is that fact that he was written for Ivanova, not Lyta, so maybe things only 'appear' out of whack to us. I think an Ivanova-Byron relationship would have carried a helluva lot more baggage including Ivanova's 'closet' latent telepathy. I honestly think Ivanova's teepness would have shot through the roof when she and Byron made love, leaving her wondering who's side she should be on. Remember, Bester was called to capture the Teeps, what part would Ivanova have played in that? That would have been some great scenes for many characters, especially Ivanova.

It's hard to remember exactly what JMS said, but it is my impression that Claudia would have played a much more important role in Year 5.
He certainly indicated that her telepathic abilities would come into play through her association with Byron. ln the beginning she would just be trying to make up for her rejection of Marcus until it was too late.

Byron would never have replaced Marcus in her affections, but she would at least have given him a chance. This would have been a much more interesting story IMO.

The saddest part of the whole thing is that Claudia has never found the stardom in movies that she wanted and she might just as well have waited one more year.

Ivanova would have been in command of B5. She may have been more sympathetic to Byron than Lochely was. It would have been nice to see her and Bester go at it. Remember Susan wasn't too fond of him.

It always seemed to me that the sides of the argument would've been switched with Susan pushing for sanctuary and Sheridan probably thinking it was a bad idea. Likewise, I could see Sheridan, while attempting to build credibility for the IA, in the sad position of having to force Susan to work with Bester during the crisis.

As Susan's personal involvement with Byron grew and the situation with Bester deteriorated, a definite rift could have developed between the two of them. As filmed, with Sheridan disliking Bester, and Lochley giving him full cooperation, there was not much in the way of drama. It was an easy moral "out" for the mostly inept President Sheridan and just another reason for fans to dislike Lochley.

And yes, Byron would have been Susan's final straw in awful love life consiting previously of a murderous xenophobe, a murderous implanted psicorps personality disguised as a bisexual female, and an unrequited virgin popsicle.

And yes, Byron would have been Susan's final straw in awful love life consiting previously of a murderous xenophobe, a murderous implanted psicorps personality disguised as a bisexual female, and an unrequited virgin popsicle.

Click to expand...

My God! Putting it like that makes me thing some of my ex's aren't as bad as I thought! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Some comments: Was Sheridan inept or did he have an excellent foresight and insight. Would he and Susan have disagreed about allowing the rough telepaths to stay ?? I think not!! However JMS might have made it any way he desired.

A point of interest is that Sheridan knew about the infiltration of the telepaths into Earth Gov under president Clark. He made the comment to Bester in Rising Star about the Corps intention of taking over and that they would loose. Clarks demise was a temporary set back for the psi corps. There were implications that the PSI Corp was plotting to become the dominant force on Earth and run the Governement. This idea was presented by several throughtout the series. Furthermore, Sheridan indicate in Season 5, when allowing a Colony on B5, that it might be useful for the future to have some telepaths on their side.
In deconstruction of falling stars they referred to the event as a precursor for the telepath war and as Sheridans biggest mistake. (Sheridan was supposed to have said that)
Allowing the telepaths to form a Colony and the event that followed lead to the telepath war. It made Byron a martyr and Lyta an active combatant in trying to destroy the corps. Thus, the telepath war became primarily a war between telepaths (corps and the roughs) and lead to the destruction of the psi corp well in advance of the psi corp being in a position to take over Earth Governement. What may have happened if this had not occurred ?
Thus, did Sheridan actually make a mistake or was it an excellent strategic and tactical move on his part !! I believe the latter.

Thats cuz Deconstruction was filmed after Claudia left..so of course you would tihnk it floated naturally from there... There was a mention of Lochley in that episode in that scene with garibaldi and franklin as hostage in medlab.


TJ

Part of the problem with this speculation is that there are actually two different scenarios by which Claudia might have stayed:

1) PTEN survived or there was some other assurance that there was going to be an S5. In that case the contracts wouldn't have had to have been renegotiated and Claudia would likely have just stayed.

2) The show was saved at the 11th hour and Claudia just decided to sign a new contract like everybody else.

In the first instance, Byron and company would have come aboard the station gradually, a few at a time, over the second half of S4. They would have been just one more set of refugees seeking shelter from the Earth Civil War on B5, and another possible weapon to use against Clark. I think this would have changed the whole dynamic of the Teep Arc.

In the second case, with the Teeps coming aboard after Clark's defeat, the situation is very different. Although there is no question where Ivanova's sympathies would have lain, I'm not at all sure that she would have supported permitting Bryon's group to establish a colony on B5. Don't forget, she is a serious, ambitious, career military officer. Once a legitimate government was installed back on Earth, she'd take her command responsibilities very seriously. Whatever her personal feelings, she would have to have seen that a colony of rogue teeps was not going to be a good thing for Babylon 5. Don't forget, she would be EarthGov's representative on the station, as well as an officer subject to orders. I think she would have made exactly the same decision that Lochley did, at whatever personal cost, and she would not have been happy when her friend and mentor John Sheridan overruled her for political reasons.

Her brief fling with Byron would certainly have deepened her conflict, and probably brought her latent telepathy to the fore, creating even more problems for her. The failure of the relationship would have hammered home just how much she lost in rejecting Marcus. Finally she, like Lochley, would have had no choice but to call in Bester when the teeps turned to blackmail and violence. I can get really pissed off with Claudia when I think about how she denied us the chance to see the scene where Susan had to place that call.

In the end, of course, she would also have had to witness Byron's martyrdom.

If you imagine that all of this had happened in S5 (as JMS assumed it "had" when he wrote "Sleeping in Light"), the bitter, lonely, isolated Ivanova of "SiL" is much easier to understand. A pity we never saw what made her that way.

Regards,

Joe

If you imagine that all of this had happened in S5 (as JMS assumed it "had" when he wrote "Sleeping in Light"), the bitter, lonely, isolated Ivanova of "SiL" is much easier to understand. A pity we never saw what made her that way.

Click to expand...

I think the whole Marcus giving his life for hers plus her previous relationships is enough to make her into who she was in Sleeping in Light.

It always seemed to me that the sides of the argument would've been switched with Susan pushing for sanctuary and Sheridan probably thinking it was a bad idea. Likewise, I could see Sheridan, while attempting to build credibility for the IA, in the sad position of having to force Susan to work with Bester during the crisis.

Click to expand...

Personally I agree with this assessment, first, because JMS had alluded to this, secondly, Sheridan distrusted the Teeps, look at how he treated Lyta. Thirdly, even though Ivanova didn't want teeps roving in her mind, she still warmed up to Talia. I think she would have done the same with Byron. Even though Ivanova is a career officer, even love and relationships will have an effect on that, this is why S5 was to be Ivanova BIG-ASS season, her career would be put on the line, her relationship with Byron and her latent teepness a part of that. She was ready to resign her position when Lyta wanted to scan her. You know that Ivanova must have realized her powers could have bloomed at anytime, or that Bester 'already' knew somehow. You know how important it was for Ivanova to keep her teepness secret, Byron or Bester or BOTH could have blackmailed her with this info to force her to make COMMAND decisions in their favor in episodes like a Tragedy of Telepaths or Phoenix Rising. Ultimately, of course, Ivanova would have chosen her career, but for various reasons it would have been difficult and in jeopardy.

As for her allowing the teeps access, she may have felt bad for them, knowing she's one as well as the fact teeps were used to defeat Clark's Shadow ships, they also died for that victory. Plus she hated Bester and the Corps, she could have done it just to be a pain with Bester. Her career never would have changed her opinion on the Corps or on Bester.

Ivanova was one character whom JMS had built in all this baggage just waiting to burst open. I can't even begin to tell you how much drama and emotion would have been involved with this character. For this reason, I think JMS maybe should have just recast the character so these things could have played out.

I can't see Sheridan OR Ivanova sanctioning Bester like Lochley did, because Garibaldi is a good friend of BOTH of there's, and they know what he went through. Not only that, What bester did to garibaldi affected Sheridan as well, adn there is NO way that Sheridan would have allowed Bester on that station and supported him the way that Lochley did. There would be no believablity for it.

I think Ivanova would have been in it for the love and companionship. That is of course, if she could let herself love again. Remember, so many people she loved died, like her parents and brother, and Marcus. It might have taken quite a bit to get Byron to break down those walls that she would have most likely put up, hoping not to care so she wouldn'd lose another loved one.