Why did Sheridan really replace Sinclair?

Ok. This is a long time ago but here's my theory anyhow.

Michael O'hare was sacrificed for a TV star to up the ratings.

But Sinclair was part of the arc yeah?

Well Sheridan pretty much filled the gap.

More intersting was how Sheriudan's wife was Catherine Sakai's replacement.

Both were archeologists. Sakai was heading off to more and more dangerous places and my theory was she was due to be lost in Season 2 on Zhadum. then turn up later just as Mrs Sheridan did. crafty old JMS got round it that way. My query however, is the ersolution of war Without End had Sinclair going back in time. So how the hell would that have all worked out?


any clues people?


Dan

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyberquiff:
Ok. This is a long time ago but here's my theory anyhow.

Michael O'hare was sacrificed for a TV star to up the ratings.

But Sinclair was part of the arc yeah?

Well Sheridan pretty much filled the gap.

More intersting was how Sheriudan's wife was Catherine Sakai's replacement.

Both were archeologists. Sakai was heading off to more and more dangerous places and my theory was she was due to be lost in Season 2 on Zhadum. then turn up later just as Mrs Sheridan did. crafty old JMS got round it that way. My query however, is the ersolution of war Without End had Sinclair going back in time. So how the hell would that have all worked out?


any clues people?


Dan

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dan,
This is only my crackpot theory, and has no basis in actual or perceived fact, and certainly has not been confirmed by any authority, real or fictitious. (How's that for a disclaimer?)

I think "War Without End" was not supposed to happen until the END of the B5 series. B4 was to be pulled into the FUTURE, with an older Sinclair and Delenn, who Sinclair married (tie-in: first season, Minbari rebirth ceremony doubling as a marriage ceremony), in a future battle with the "darkness," which at that time, is probably NOT the Shadows. This explains why the future Sinclair in "Babylon Squared" was gray-haired. The warning that the future Sinclair tried to deliver, mentioned in "Babylon Squared" would have been a warning about what happened to Centauri Prime, as described in the Centauri Trilogy, and seen in the future scene in "War Without End." This makes more sense than the current explanation in the Centauri Trilogy, which doesn't tie neatly into Londo's words in "War Without End," and although it's explained in the book, it's kind of hokey.

Then, at the end, where in the new version Sheridan goes off with Lorien, at the end of his life, Sinclair would go back to become Valen. The tie-in for this is that according to Valen's prophecies as mentioned by Lennier early in season two, the two sides of the Minbari soul came together TO DEFEAT the Shadows. Obviously, the Valen in the new version couldn't have known that, whereas in my scenario, Valen would have known the outcome of the Shadow War.

In my version, B4 didn't have to go back into the past - just Sinclair.

I'd love it if JMS would tell us what the original plan was in addition to what the story is. I'd love to see what he'd have done with the Talia/Garibaldi thing if Talia had stuck around.

Joe


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This has been discussed numerous times in this forum. In fact if you look back through past threads you will probably see some of it. I think the most accepted theory goes something like this:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Sinclair was always supposed to ge back in time and be Valen. A Sheridan character was going to be introduced anyway in mid season 2 because JMS was realizing that there was too much he wanted to accomplish for just 1 character. Yea, Sakai was probably going to be the one to go to Z'Ha'Dum and come back like Anna did. As for War Without End and Babylon Squared, some believe that WWE was supposed to be sort of the series finale as well as you did, but with a different twist. It would still take place 20 years in the future (which is why Sinclair had grey hair in B-Squared). However it was at that point that he was supposed to go take B4 back in time and become Valen.</font></td></tr></table>

That was as brief as I could be, and Im sure I dont have everything exactly as it was probably going to be, but Im sure some others could fill in my holes. Or, as mentioned, look back through past threads. Its all in here somewhere.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Great theory and it all kind of makes sense too.

When Talia left the show (Andrea Thompson wanting more dosh) they had to nring in Lyta again to be the telepath they needed for the Shadow War and the big End game. JMS made up the idea that her powers were heightened by the Vorlons.

In the Talia scenario Talia already had heightened powers from Jason Ironside (think his name is that!) so that storyline was snipped.


Along the way you could see JMS tweak the arc out of necessity due to external elements affecting the show.

One of the most annoying ones was when Sheridan had a vision with Garibaldi, Ivanova and himself in a Psi-Corp uniform. this was passed off later in a hurried explanation and i got the impression that those elements in the dream sequence were never realised.

I agree, it would be absoluetly brilliant if JMS would reveal the original arc before it was altered.


I wonder how we'd get to ask him

maybe a petition?


Dan

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He's been asked many times, but he has been adamant about not revealing the original arc.

As for the Lyta/Talia thing...you forget that Lyta was in the pilot. Her being altered by Vorlons thread would have been there all along because of her contact with Kosh from the pilot. But Pat Tallman wasn't available when the show started, so they needed another telepath. The Jason Ironheart storyline was the tweak that would have made Talia more powerful. Fortunately, when Andrea Thompson wanted out, Pat Tallman was able to return.

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[This message has been edited by nolesrule (edited February 01, 2002).]

There's something else that they did to show that Talia would be the "Telepath of Choice" during the Shadow war and after (besided the Ironheart thing). She was "tested" by Kosh and that robot guy thing. This is very similar to how Sheridan and Delenn (and I assume the same would have happened to Sinclair and Delenn) were tested by Sebastian and Kosh.

Another question though. Was Delenn also going back in time with Sinclair? They would have been married.

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Never use the expression "I've got your six" to a Centauri, unless, of course, you mean it.

jeez you have good memories.
I must sit and watch the series all over again.

Just as well that's coming out on DVD heh?

Yeah the Talia being tested by the robot guy thing was never explained.

I remember when Talia was pulled out Garibaldi somehow remebered somethign Kosh said (odd seeing as he wasn't there!) - anyway, he said he'd look into it - but never did.


Come on JMS. We are dying to know what was really supposed to happen.


Oh and remember 'Control' mentioned in series 1 & 2. and that episode spider in the web with the asssasin.

Lot's of psycorp stuff that never got explained.

Do you suppose JMS had an idea of the big picture but kind of made the details up as he went along?

this would explain his reluctance to ex-lain all.

or maybe he's worried we might all say "I wish it could have been like...."

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyberquiff:
Great theory and it all kind of makes sense too.

When Talia left the show (Andrea Thompson wanting more dosh) they had to nring in Lyta again to be the telepath they needed for the Shadow War and the big End game. JMS made up the idea that her powers were heightened by the Vorlons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The part I'm referring to is the part with Zack becoming interested in Lyta the same way Garibaldi was interested in Talia. Was there a reason that JMS needed the chief of security character to have a romantic interest in the super-telepath character? It never materialized fully.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyberquiff:

One of the most annoying ones was when Sheridan had a vision with Garibaldi, Ivanova and himself in a Psi-Corp uniform. this was passed off later in a hurried explanation and i got the impression that those elements in the dream sequence were never realised.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Legend Of The Rangers speculation that could be potential spoiler material if it were from any sort of reputable source - WARNING - PURE SPECULATION AND IMAGINATION HERE!

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Does anyone else find it interesting that JMS named the unknown force in Legend Of The Rangers "the Hand"? Two people have been referred to as "the Hand" in Babylon 5 - Londo Mollari by Elric ("I see a great hand reaching out of the stars. The hand is your hand."), and John Sheridan in the dream sequence by Garibaldi ("You are the hand."). Is "The Hand" something to do with Sheridan, perhaps tied to his adventure into Thirdspace, which to me seemed rather pointless? Something to do with Sheridan's "Equal and Opposite," as referred to by Delenn? Or is it something to do with Mollari, or the Drakh? I don't believe in coincidence when it comes to JMS. I believe he PURPOSELY chose the name "the Hand," and he did it for a reason. I just can't figure out what the reason is. That's part of why I liked LOTR. </font></td></tr></table>

More than anyone else, JMS leaves so many intricate threads - some intentional and meant to be followed, and some false trails that you're supposed to ignore - that he keeps me speculating the whole time. That's why I like the series so much. I'm always trying to guess where it's going next - sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. It's like being a little kid again and trying to ask your parents how the story ends and they keep giving you hints about it, making you all the more eager to hear the whole story.

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ahhh THE HAND

I'd forgotten about that.

Yes. It is odd that JMS should choose that very same phrase for the enemy mentioned in the telemovie.

I too can't believe it's by co-incidence.

My only gripe with LOTR and having a big bad enemy again (even bigger than the shadows apparently) that we already know what happens in the B5 storyline after LOTR - so we know it's not a galaxy threatening enemy.

That's the trouble with glimpses of the future!


dan

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If Joe DeM were here he could answer your question, citing chapter and verse. However, IIRC there was always going to be a Sheridan type character introduced in Year 2. There were two separate story lines and JMS thought it was too much to expect one person to be Valen, go to Z'ha'Dum, win the Shadow War, start a civil war with Earth, become the President of the IA and fall in love with Delenn.

He wanted to separate the two characters and it worked quite well when O'Hare left at the end of Season 1. His replacement wasn't even chosen until three weeks before filming started on Season 2. They auditioned a number of actors before Boxleitner was chosen.

As for the end, JMS always saw the end as the grand destruction of Babylon 5 as shown in SiL. Therefore the station couldn't have gone back in time. His grand arc was very loosely constructed with lots of room for change as he went along, with his famous trapdoors.

There has been so much written about why O'Hare left. Both gentlemen have said it was by mutual agreement and they have remained good friends so why shouldn't that be true.

JMS has said he wanted Pat Tallman in the series from the beginning, but had to make an adjustment when she wasn't available. Getting her back later was a bonus.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

From JMS:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>On GEnie, 11 April 1992:
A few days ago, I sat down with our line producer, John Copeland, and production designer John Iacovelli, and we were talking about the need to move quickly on some stuff, and how painful the process is to have the whole story in your head, already told, really, and then have to make it all over again so we can put it on film. "You think you've got it bad," I noted, "I've already worked out the last scene in the last episode of the last season (#5)...and I've still got to make Movie #1." They called me on it and asked what that scene was. Just to see their reaction, I told them. They looked at me as if I'd suddenly sprouted three heads and feathers. It was worth it. (Happily, they're sworn to secrecy.) It was also good because I think that, even without filling in the beats in between, it gave them a good sense of where the series was going to go.

The Babylon 5 story ends at the final episode of year five.

And there will never be a Babylon 6.

If I didn't have a good, solid, consistent ending, I wouldn't have started the story. I always have the ending before I begin writing the beginning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

War Without End could not have been the last episode because the decomissioning of B5 was always supposed to be last. And Sinclar had grey hair because he went there twice, and it affected his age (remember the pilot that went in, came out, and died of old age). He didn't let Garibaldi go because he thought that would happen. Which is why he had gray hair, NOT because it was 20 years later.

Research something before you open your mouth to speak.

As for Sinclair leaving... http://babylon5.cybersite.com.au/lurk/misc/sinclair-leave.html


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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

[This message has been edited by A_Ranger (edited February 01, 2002).]

if sinclair was supposed to stay throughout the series then would he have died on Zahadum? if so then would he have had only 20 years to live? if so then he couldn't have gone back to be valen cause he wouldn't have had enough time. .... Zathras: "time is infinite"

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Hrmmm,

I imagine that the series finale would have had him go back to be Valen at that point. He would live, but could no longer live in the present time.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>War Without End could not have been the last episode because the decomissioning of B5 was always supposed to be last. And Sinclar had grey hair because he went there twice, and it affected his age (remember the pilot that went in, came out, and died of old age). He didn't let Garibaldi go because he thought that would happen. Which is why he had gray hair, NOT because it was 20 years later.

Research something before you open your mouth to speak.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm of the opinion that the "two visits causes accelerated aging" thing was a cop-out to explain Sinclair's appearance in "Babylon Squared". The same way "Watch you back, Micheal!" was.

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Well, every time someone starts this discussion, we get to this point:

"My mind is made up, Don't confuse me with Facts!"

It doesn't matter what JMS said.
These posters have figured it all out and that's That!



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

We've had this discussion several times before.
And the Evidence indicates that most of your speculation is Wrong.

Here's a few quotes from JMS to illustrate:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>About the marriage ceremony in "Parliament of Dreams"?

The marriage was a red-herring, a bit of misdirection. The key for any magician is to get the audience to look at your hand so they don't see the elephant being wheeled onto the stage in full view.
The line in "Parliament" is, "It's a rebirth ceremony all right, and sometimes doubles for a marriage ceremony."
When I wrote that, I knew instantly that everyone would focus in on the second half (misdirection) and miss the first half. (Note that Delenn's "And so it begins" is echoed by Kosh in the last episode{Chrysalis}.)
I put out something that I figured everybody would latch onto, ignoring the other meaning which is stated twice.
jms

One problem, of course, is that your message about predestination being a drag is that you think you know where it's going. When we first went on the air, I saw many messages from people saying "Boy, this is gonna get real boring, everybody's part is already laid out in order for this to be a five-year story, Londo's the funny guy, G'Kar's the bad guy, they're locked into their roles...."

Well, now...I think we see the flaw in that particular approach.

On the notion that "plots are less than organic," plots are by definition not organic. Plots are artificialities which we graft onto a sequence of events in order to give them meaning. As someone noted, "The king died, and the queen died" is not a plot or a story; "The king died, and the queen died of grief" IS a story, IS a plot; there is connective tissue.

There is always a guiding hand behind the story, otherwise you'd just have the characters sitting around and having random things happen to them.

And not all foreshadowing is real foreshadowing; some is planted as red herrings. Some foreshadows don't mean what you THINK they mean. I have planted no end of turns, twists, surprises, reverses, double reveals, backtracks, ironies and revelations all along the path.

I have always considered the Babylon 5 story to be, in essence, future history. "Babylon 5 WAS the last of the Babylon stations. It WAS our last, best hope for peace." Past tense. If I write a novel about the incidents of World War II, then I'm dealing in history. The events are set... but where the characters go is another question. You can read all the information about how we got a thousand clues and foreshadows to what was going to happen at Pearl Harbor...but it happened anyway. The guiding hand of Fate... or a crucial bobble at the wrong moment? One can look back at it now and argue both sides.

Finally, any time a writer writes a novel, the characters are all going somewhere under the guiding hand of the author. That's what a novel IS. Scrooge is GOING to be visited by three ghosts, and he's GOING to reform, and that's the end of the discussion. Unless you're willing to throw long-form novel writing out the door as an artform because it's not appropriate that the characters should be on a specific and crafted journey....
jms


"JMS has specifically told us that one MAIN character will die in Chrysalis or Points of Departure (I don't remember which)."

No I haven't.

Never said it.

Sometimes, what happens is that people guess about what's going to happen in the story...and gradually that becomes the assumption on the part of some people that this WILL happen...which in time metamorphoses into "JMS said this would happen."

This is yet another of those. Never said it.

While I understand how this happens (and it happens a lot), the only real complication that I get from it is that suddenly I'm being held to promises I never made...and if it doesn't happen as I supposedly said, then it's somehow my fault.
jms
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhps, before going any Further, you should look through the archives and read the Previous discusions on this subject.
It'll save all of us from going over the same old misconceptions.

Or, you could visit: http://www.jmsnews.com/

And read through the stuff that JMS posted While he was writing B5.
There are over 16,000 messages from the last 10 years.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindley:
I'm of the opinion that the "two visits causes accelerated aging" thing was a cop-out to explain Sinclair's appearance in "Babylon Squared". The same way "Watch you back, Micheal!" was.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lindley,

I concur.

And let's keep in mind one thing - JMS, although he'll satisfy our undying curiousity with a take here and a take there of how things were "supposed to" go, is generally pleased with the way things have turned out (as well he should be). The last thing in the world he'd want to do to us is give us two of essentially the same thing, with each a little different, and have us arguing over which was better.

Part of telling a great story is knowing when to say it was over. Another part is not letting the people around you - for example, US - change it once it's done.

The problem is that some of us, like me for example, love to speculate. We see things that look hokey, and wonder how the "real world" issues caused the changes to make them look hokey. And if you think about it, the 20-year aging effect and the "Watch your back, Michael" both looked hokey.

Now - what would Sinclair have tried to warn people about? Perhaps he tried to warn himself not to go to Z'ha'dum? That's my own thought. Of course, in the released version, Sinclair wouldn't be able to try to send that message to Sheridan.

Also, someone, earlier in the thread, said JMS thought it was too much for one person to be Valen, defeat the Shadows, die on Z'ha'dum, fall in love with Delenn, etc. Guess what? If you eliminate "be Valen" from that list, you've got one person - Sheridan.

Another puzzle - three "the one"s? Granted, it's three, and somehow three needs to be in there. How about instead of a second coming of Valen, there was also a THRID coming of Valen - who was "the one" rather than Sheridan, Delenn, Sinclair? There are so many directions that JMS could have gone had he so chosen and had real life not intervened.

The possibilities for endless speculation. Man, I love it when story-tellers can give us things like this!

Joe


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Well, every time someone starts this discussion, we get to this point:

"My mind is made up, Don't confuse me with Facts!"

It doesn't matter what JMS said.
These posters have figured it all out and that's That!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bakana,

A question for you -

How often did JMS allude to things like the wisdom of questioning, the curiousity of children, and not doing "as you're told"?

"Have it all figured out"? Well if I did, that'd mean the story was over, wouldn't it? Why would anyone want that?

Ask yourself if JMS has treated Babylon 5 as a "here it is, this is it" project, or if he's allowed it to be a living, breathing story with possibilities, answered our questions - sometimes with answers that leave us with more questions - and evolved it into something that draws you in?

Personally, whether "right" or "wrong," I'd think that he'd be glad that those of us who enjoy the story are trying to piece things together, and see how it would fit, rather than accepting the word of God (in this case, JMS) as to how it was.

"That which we are, we are."

Also, stolen from the tagline of one of the posters here, "The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it." How much more so an idea?

"Commander, you know everything about your stone garden, but clearly, you have not spend nearly enough time looking at it. Good day."

Joe


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[This message has been edited by joev5638 (edited February 02, 2002).]

joev5638, I'm basing My opinion on having been a Participant in some of the ongoing Online discussions with JMS since 1992.

I've been an online Witness to the process and read JMS posts about what was happening and what He was thinking While he was writing the story.

Plus, I've been Here when we had this discussion a few times Before.
Every time a "new" group of people starts posting and reaches a certain "critical mass", this discussion starts again.
And, it would be amazing how many times people come up with the same speculations if we didn't know that many of them come from reading old posts on Other discussion sites and Fan Fic archives.

So, If some of the "old hands" around here seem a bit impatient, it's because we've had this discussion before.


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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>War Without End could enver have been the last episode. Why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure where this WWE being the last episode concept came in. In my post way up there, what I actually SAID was that some believe that WWE was supposed to be the series finale, but with a twist. And why I meant by THAT was that not the episode verbatim, but the fact that in the series finale is where Sinclair goes back in time with B4 to become Valen. Now I dont surf news groups or go digging up information, but I have seen some people who have a pretty idea of what is going on allude to that possibility. I dint mean, or say, that WWE literally would be the finale, what was meant is that in the series finale, Sinclair would have gone back, gotten B4, and become Valen, thereby making the entire series and story circular.

Hope that clears some things up. Again people, its all conjecture here. And you could probably save some time by reading back on various threads on this same subject line.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK