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Hands up who loves Carnivàle [now with spoilers]

Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

We found out that "Sophie is the Omega," by way of her dead mom possessing Adrien Barbeau.
I'm glad you brought that up, because I was under the impression that it was the Professor that was possessing her. I guess it makes more sense for it to be the mother. There's still a lot that I don't understand about the whole Sophie thing ... mostly why her mother waited so long to try and kill her. Was there something that she just discovered about her daughter last season that she hadn't known all along?
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

We found out that "Sophie is the Omega," by way of her dead mom possessing Adrien Barbeau.

Ruthie signed the lipstick note on the mirror with the letter "L," and had the same eyes as the late professor, which I took to mean she was again possessed by Professor Lodz.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

I didn't notice the L, so, you are probably right. I did notice the eyes, but thought those could be Sophie's mom's eyes. What was Sophie's mom's first name? Did it start with an L? And didn't they call her Lady, also with an L? Ruthie has seen both Lodz and Sophie's mom, after their deaths.

As to Sophie's mom trying to kill her, that is also a complex puzzle. She was very bitter, and seemed to have a love/hate thing with Sophie, perhaps based on more than Sophie being a child of rape, if she actually was. It could be that mom was trying to save Sophie from a worse fate, or that she had only just envisioned what part Sophie was to play in upcoming events, and wanted to stop that. My (uncertain) thinking was that mom was angry at her growing relationship with Ben, for two reasons, because Scutter is Ben's father, and she hates Scutter, and therefore Ben, and the possible (unknowing) incest I mentioned earlier. That could have been her motive. It's also possible SHE was trying to test/expose Ben's powers, expecting him to save Sophie. These many complex possibilities (I'm sure there are more!), created by the great writing are why I love this show.

To answer my own question, her name was Apollonia. And, it's Scudder, not Scutter. I fianlly went to the HBO Carnivale website.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Another thing, why is Justin so protective of Norman? Is it just that he enjoys tormenting him? I understand that having Norman slaughtered by a mob at his services wouldn't play too well, but I think there is something going on that we don't know about here. Maybe Justin needs Norman, to play some part in his ascendancy. Maybe Iris knows this, and that's why she calmed Norman by telling him that she would expose Justin.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

I'm probably wrong on this one, but I think Justin keeps Norman around because he wants his love and acceptance. Norman is the closest thing to a father he's ever really known and, like any son, he wants his father to be proud of him -- at least that's what I figure. But like you, I think "helpless" Norman will be his undoing in the end.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

I think she was definitely possessed by the professor. Because previously, when her eyes went like that, she spoke in the professor's tone. This time the eyes were the same, and she/he was feeling along the table as if she were blind.

I'm probably wrong on this one, but I think Justin keeps Norman around because he wants his love and acceptance. Norman is the closest thing to a father he's ever really known and, like any son, he wants his father to be proud of him -- at least that's what I figure.

Yes. That was the conclusion I came to. And also what's the point of being all powerful if there's not people around to see?

Oh, and I loved how we were talking about if Iris really was evil, and then she bashes poor Eleanor's head in with an oar!
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Ok, here's my take.

I also suspect that Scudder was the one who raped Appy and is Sophie's father. It could be younger, "in his prime" Scudder. That said, "The Usher" could still be another outside entity that is yet unknown or unrevealed.

In the first episode of the first season, we see Scudder running through a cornfield, being chased by the tattoo'ed man. It leads one to believe that this was another being. It could also mean that Scudder was running from the evil within him.

Now, we see Brother Justin doing the same, though, isn't Brother Justin embracing his evil? Maybe . . . maybe not.

Another thing that it could mean is that Scudder was being chased by the Creature of Darkness that came BEFORE him. Well, not chased so much as introduced. That means, in Justin's dreams about being chased, Scudder could be the one chasing Justin now.

I've always wondered what Sophie's part in all of this was. Now, I'm starting to think that she is indeed "the omega" in that she can turn Brother Justin from his path as easy as she could turn Ben from his. It seems she brought out goodness in Brother Justin, as she was immune to his lustful charms and he was rather "inspired" by that fact.

Scudder turned from his evil fate and went into the world to try and be "just a man" (according to Samson's monologue in the first episode of Season 2.) He was a coward (according to Management / The Russian) who refused to accept his fate. Because of this, the cycle continued. Had Scudder killed Management by his own hand (or had Management killed scudder with his own hands) the cycle, I think, would have been broken. Because Scudder refused to participate, the cycle went on to the next generation.

Sophie is another link in the chain and she is the one who can either break the chain or keep it going. If she succeeds in moving Brother Justin off his path of evil, there will be no fight and the cycle will start again with the next generation.

That is just my theory. That's what they could mean by Sophie being "the omega." She is the end, one way or another.

Nice to have people to talk about this stuff with!
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Oh, and I loved how we were talking about if Iris really was evil, and then she bashes poor Eleanor's head in with an oar!

Antony, I don't doubt that Iris is evil, although she might not see herself as evil. At least overtly, she believes she is serving God, and her brother, who she thinks is a man of God. Of course, that doesn't make what she has done any less evil. But, if she really believes that, or did until recently, her future actions could be quite different, even if not less murderous. She just might actually turn on her brother, as she has said she would. I'm by no means certain of this, I am just saying it is a possibility. And yes, I now realize it is certain that Ruthie was possessed by Lodz, and I think P10 is right about why Justin keeps Norman around.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Alluveal, yes, it is nice to have others to bounce our conjectures off of. You have some interesting ones. There are a couple I don't think likely, but in this show, you never know.

As I've said, I think Sophie has a special part to play. I'm virtually certain that she is the daughter of either Management, or Scudder, which may well give her abilities that we haven't seen yet. We do know that she has precognitive powers that she thought were her mother's alone. IT could be that Justin felt that there was something different about her, or that they were related, and that is why he didn't pursue his lust with her. I do think that there is still some struggle going on in Justin, between good and evil, but I don't think that Sophie can turn Justin towards good, or turn Ben from his confrontation with the evil in Justin. I do think it possible that Sophie was influenced by Management to play a certain role. We will see.

I think Management's goal is to stop the cycle, so, if killing Scudder, or dying by his hands, would do it, Management would have done that. So, I don't think that would stop the cycle. I'm not sure if Ben killing Justin will stop it either. Ben may have to give his life while doing so to stop the cycle.

Another thing to ponder... what if Sophie is pregnant by Ben? :eek:
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Well, here's what I think so far on the child thing.

Management (aka The Russian) + (?) unknown woman = Brother Justin (creature of darkness)

*Management may have fathered Iris as well, though I think Iris has a different father. She is the eldest.

Scudder + Ms. Hawkins = Ben (Creature of Light)

Appy + "The tattooed man" (aka "The Usher) = Sophie (fate / role unknown.)

It looks like it skips generations. Scudder was the Creature of Darkness and his son is the Creature of Light.

Management (aka the Russian) was the Creature of Light and his son is the Creature of Darkness.

If we go by that simple analysis, it means that Ben's son will be evil and Brother Justin's will be good.

HOWEVER, since Jade brought up the possibility that Sophie and Ben could have a child, it's hard to tell. Sophie's fate / role is unknown. If her father WAS evil, that means Sophie is good (going along the above formula.)

Good Being + Normal person = Bad child
Bad Being + Normal person = Good child

Good Being + Good Being = ???

Could be an extra evil child. Could be that the genes cancel one another out and you truly will have a divine being, above and beyond what Ben is. Terrifying to imagine.

If Sophie and Brother Justin end up becoming intimate and she gets pregnant by him, their child would be equally as uncertain. It could be good or bad.

Another thought is that "The Tattooed Man" really wasn't a man, but some kind of strange entity, some kind of essence that gives power to either the Creature of Light OR the Creature of Darkness. Perhaps that entity manifested itself into physical form and that's what Appy was being raped by. She did, after all, have one foot in the land of the living and one foot in the land of the dead. Not sure that one holds water, but as you said, with this show, anything's possible.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Another thing I have noticed, rewatching the episodes, is that Sophie and Brother Justin have an undeniable connection. First, the radio turned itself to his show.

Also,at the beginning of the second season, Brother Justin is digging a hole to mark the beginning of his new temple. That same episode, Sophie digs a ditch and she also hums the same tune that Brother Justin hummed / sang earlier that day / ep.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle [now with spoiler

One thing that has bothered me from the very beginning is the series' notion of "good" vs. "evil."

To be honest, neither Brother Justin nor Ben neatly fall into either category. Let's not forget that Justin was a minister when the series started, while Ben was a wanted murderer. Since then, we've seen Ben kill two other people with his bare hands and not really give a damn about anyone until recently. Brother Justin, for all of his supposed "evil nature," has shown nothing but kindness to all of those who have had kindness in their hearts. From what we have seen, his "evil" plans have included a Christian-based orphanage for children who have lost everything due to the depression; a church for the poor and the migrants; building a shining city on the hill; spreading the word of god via the radio; and upsetting the status quo power structure of both his own denomination and the current political structure -- doesn't exactly sound like the Prince of Evil to me.

Ironically, it seems to me that Brother Justin is naturally a good man with a good heart, but his powers constantly tempt him to do evil. Ben, on the other hand, is naturally a bad man, but his powers constantly tempt him to do good. It almost seems that it's the manifestation of their powers that's dictating the whole "good" vs. "evil" thing, rather than the people themselves. They're both sympathetic figures to me, because they're both being used and toyed with by higher powers.

Scudder, it seems, at least had the courage to say "screw it" and stopped being the plaything of the gods (or God, the Devil or whatever).
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Interesting. I hadn't caught, or had forgotten, those earlier connections between Justin and Sophie. I still think that Management has set Sophie on a mission of some sort.

It is clear to me that Justin is "The Usher," and I think they refer to him as such on the website. I think it is probably just coincidence, or reason unknown, why the light and the dark switched families in the next generation, but not preordained. Management didn't seem to know that his son was alive, much less that he was the Usher, and seemed genuinely angry to be told that by Scudder. I think the tree tatoo is something the Usher does to somehow aquire power. Doubtless, we will find out more about it in the future.

I get the idea that Iris and Justin were not born in the US, but came here as children, when the train wreck occurred, that was thought to have caused their demise. And, wasn't the person they were fleeing from in the flashback their father, the Russian/Management? Or, was it Scudder, or other parties? I see no reason to think Iris and Justin didn't have the same parents. Sophie is somewhat younger, so, I guess she could be the child of the Russian, after he came to the US, but I too still think it was Scudder.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle [now with spoiler

You make some interesting points, P10. I think that Justin was a good man, in the beginning, before he became possessed, or his powers began to manifest themselves. But, many close to him have said that he is possessed by the devil, and he seems to be embracing his powers, and striving to control lots of people. He is controling Varyln Stroud, who has done some pretty cold blooded killings, among other things. Although it is left to our imagination, Justin seems to have done some demonic rapes, which drove his victims insane, not exactly a good thing.

Ben, on the other hand, was very afraid and ashamed of his powers, wishing that he didn't have them. I don't think we know anything about the original murder he is wanted for, so, perhaps he is not to blame. The two killings we know of, he took the life of a killer to bring back the victim, and the second time, he killed to save the life of his father, and was probably directly influenced by the Russian TO do it, while he was doing it. Ben has reluctantly embraced his powers because he believes he has to use them to prevent some great evil, not to gain power for himself, as Justin seems to want to do.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle

Doing some reading on the HBO Carnivale website, I find that Sophie was born in 1913, and Scudder joined the Canadian Army in 1914, and was stationed in Lemberg, in the Ukraine, which is where he met the Russian, who tried to assassinate him. It therefore seems to me that the Russian could not be Sophie's father, so, I think it is almost certainly Scudder.
 
Re: Hands up who loves Carnivàle [now with spoiler

Some excellent points. I remember that Iris and Justin were running from "someone" though I'm not sure it was their father (aka, Management.)

Iris does refer to their father as "a bad man," when speaking to Justin in the vision. Very odd, isn't it. Management was the "Creature of Light" yet his children know him as a bad man.

Then again, Ben's mom called him filth.

Granny Scudder had an opposite reaction. She adored and loved her boy and killed all the Scudder males the day he was born. Referred to his pretty "golden curls."

It's odd that things are flip flopped. Mothers that give birth to evil children seem to think the world of them, though we don't know how Justin's mother felt about him, we do know how Granny Scudder felt.

Mothers that give birth to good children seem to think their kids are no good, filth, evil. Ms. Hawkins is one. Appy could be another. If Sophie is indeed a good egg, her mother sure wanted her dead.

It's also interesing that 10 brings up the strange beginnings, then again, JMS addressed this in his own writing. I recall him saying that Kosh was an alien who was mysterious, cryptic, does some pretty negative things, yet he's considered a good guy. Morden, on the other hand, goes around helping people and is automatically considered the bad guy. JMS said it was great to write that.

It could be that the writers thought "ok, let's take this to the extreme." The oddest fit for a do-gooder, creature of light, is a young boy who was just let out of jail for murder, running from the law and being a bit stand-offish, closed to intimacy and private.

The oddest fit for a creature of dark is a preacher who goes out of his way to help others, is openly caring and giving.

Perhaps it's just the story's way of saying "you can find good and evil in the strangest places."

Though I agree with 10, neither seem completely good or completely evil. Ben has quite a mouth on him for a messiah, using "G* Da**" frequently, making threats, beating the heck out of people, etc.

Justin struggles hardcore with his evil nature. He seems more in anguish over it in season 1 (where he begs Norman to kill him.)

I guess this is another reason I can see Sophie being the key. It wasn't until Sophie and Ben hooked up and started their friendship that Ben started to open up and be less of a crab.

Now, Sophie is with Brother Justin and his spilled milk routine isn't working, he'd rather help her pray and forgive. She inspires him.

I know that Brother Justin is the Usher, or will become the Usher once Scudder is dead. Some of these roles don't seem terribly well-defined. Perhaps the reason it's skipped from Tatooed man to Justin (instead of going from Tatooded man to Scudder to Justin) is that Scudder turned his back on his destiny and never embraced the usher.

Management tells ben that the Usher is flesh and that this is a sign that the end times are upon us. That the Usher had many names, including "The Lord of Shadows" (and some other things I could not fully comprehend.)

Another strange thing I uncovered while googling some stuff, was this:

LORD OF SHADOWS

Every light casts its shadows, and the Lord of Shadows is the other face of the Lord of Light. Lord of the Underworld is the title of the God in Winter when He goes underground with the animals to hibernate. Some traditions had Him alternate with His brother as husband to the eternal Goddess. Others, as in the Greek Hades, had a year-round God of the Underworld, "The Devil."

From the Sumerian Beliefs: That evening the Lord of Shadows caused the rain to fall, a rain of filth.

*Very odd if you consider it rained when Ben and Sophie had sex.
 

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