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Old November 16th 17, 09:04   #21
b5historyman
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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If I recall rightly, wasn't it going to be Laurel who shot Garibaldi in the back? So, I imagine a lot of it would have come out at the end of season 1.
Yes, Laurel would have revealed as the traitor who shot Garibaldi.
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Old November 16th 17, 15:27   #22
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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Yes, Laurel would have revealed as the traitor who shot Garibaldi.
But would all of the things she did each step of the way, like altering the transport tube's records, have been revealed?

BTW, the way it plays out in the show it doesn't appear she had to give the assassin access to Varner's quarters. When he walks into Varner's quarters Varner doesn't seem surprised to see him. It looks more like they arranged something, so is it just that she arranged for them both to have access to the quarters without making a record of it. I guess my point is that when I read that she arranged for the assassin to have access to his quarters it sounded like you were saying without Varner knowing when in fact you probably just meant without security knowing someone other than Varner had access. And I'll stop rambling right . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . now!
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Old November 19th 17, 08:34   #23
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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Okay so I know I have dropped the ball on this for a bit, but I've written a lot and I decided to break it up and do smaller posts, one thing at a time so to speak. Picking up where I left off. I could try to analyze every scene and line of dialogue, but nobody wants that. I am trying to break it down and just try to mention some interesting observations from my perspective. As The Gathering gets going JMS gives us a taste for how things are working; people and ships are coming and going. There are MANY opportunities for me to Read Between The Lines.

Side Notes – The fact that Lyta needs Sinclair’s personal approval to board the station is interesting. Does anyone know if JMS meant for this to continue with all Telepaths or was this just meant to establish some significance to her coming to B5 in an official capacity?

One scene I love is the exposition of Sinclair walking with Lyta when she arrives in both versions. I understand why some of it was removed for the Special Edition, but despite some effects that people might think look a little silly I think this journey works in both versions. The dialogue seems like blatant exposition Lyta should already know as an “Official Psi Corps Representative”, but I feel the way O’Hare delivers it almost sounds like he is a tour guide who is simultaneously delivering a legal disclaimer. She is the Official Psi Corps Representative and it seems like he is giving her the shtick that the higher-ups require him to deliver before they give her any authority. It is brilliant because he is also telling the audience about the station and how things work as they walk through a critical sector. I don't know if this is exactly "Reading Between The Lines" or just recognition that I feel there is more to what O'Hare is doing than just saying his lines. When I hear his delivery I hear the information, but the way he is saying the words gives me a duel reaction.

On the flip side what doesn’t work so well for me is when Lyta asks “Why Babylon 5?” She is the Official Psi Corps Representative and she did zero research?! I mean you could say that she was possibly busy with training during the time frame the Babylon Station’s construction was in the news, I know I missed a lot of world events when I was in college, but to say she got the assignment and then didn’t look up the info about where she was going seems very off - especially given Babylon 5's high profile. I know it is meant for the audience, but as brilliant as I feel it is when Sinclair is laying out the info to her I feel the opposite when she needs to be told why this is the fifth station. I don't mean Patricia Tallman did anything wrong. I just feel that maybe it was a poor choice to put that bit of exposition at that moment.

So there is a little bit. I know it isn't mind-blowing, but it is compartmentalized.
One factor to take into account is that Lyta is a telepath - a walking lie detector. Her talent does not allow her to detect lies in videos and written material but she can surface scan the man walking beside her. She would know what the official story (lie?) about the Babylon 4 mystery but not the real story. The commander of Babylon 5 is likely to know what actually happened to Babylon 4. For instance if it was stolen by a powerful race the government could cover this up until Earth Force had built sufficient warships to demand it back.
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Old November 20th 17, 12:03   #24
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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Originally Posted by Looney View Post
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Originally Posted by b5historyman View Post

Yes, Laurel would have revealed as the traitor who shot Garibaldi.
But would all of the things she did each step of the way, like altering the transport tube's records, have been revealed?

BTW, the way it plays out in the show it doesn't appear she had to give the assassin access to Varner's quarters. When he walks into Varner's quarters Varner doesn't seem surprised to see him. It looks more like they arranged something, so is it just that she arranged for them both to have access to the quarters without making a record of it. I guess my point is that when I read that she arranged for the assassin to have access to his quarters it sounded like you were saying without Varner knowing when in fact you probably just meant without security knowing someone other than Varner had access. And I'll stop rambling right . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . now!
Well I did point out in post above about third parties being involved. So it may not have come as a surprise to Varner that the assassin came to his quarters and cleared for access by Laurel. Remember the Minbari missed his rendezvous with Varner. Laurel was in on it so knew who the assassin would be and needed to propel the assassination forward.
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Old November 21st 17, 18:17   #25
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow View Post
One factor to take into account is that Lyta is a telepath - a walking lie detector. Her talent does not allow her to detect lies in videos and written material but she can surface scan the man walking beside her. She would know what the official story (lie?) about the Babylon 4 mystery but not the real story. The commander of Babylon 5 is likely to know what actually happened to Babylon 4. For instance if it was stolen by a powerful race the government could cover this up until Earth Force had built sufficient warships to demand it back.
So you think she asked "Why Babylon 5?" in an attempt to see if she could detect if he knew the truth about what happened to Babylon 4? That is an interesting theory that I don't think is true, but it is an interesting theory.

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Well I did point out in post above about third parties being involved. So it may not have come as a surprise to Varner that the assassin came to his quarters and cleared for access by Laurel. Remember the Minbari missed his rendezvous with Varner. Laurel was in on it so knew who the assassin would be and needed to propel the assassination forward.
Yeah I realized all that. I think what I really want to know is how much would have been revealed when Takashima's alternate personality was exposed had she continued on the show? Would we have been told she altered the logs and the lift and every little detail or would we have just been expected to assume the chain of logic that the alter ego had done every unexplained bad thing in the show to the point when the hidden persona was exposed?
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Old December 4th 17, 23:14   #26
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

One of my goals in starting this was to talk about some of the important aspects of why The Gathering (1993) should be watched and when it should be watched. Jumping ahead to the scene with Sinclair and Delenn in the Garden. Delenn says she is looking forward to meeting a Vorlon. I mention this because it is a definite moment in story progression that is altered if one were to watch In The Beginning (1998) before The Gathering (1993). If you watch the prequel In The Beginning (1998) first then you would know Delenn is lying to Sinclair when she pretends she has never met a Vorlon. That might alter a new viewers immediate impression of who she is and would might make someone more suspicious of her when, in that same scene, she gives Sinclair files on the Vorlons. If one had seen In The Beginning (1998) first you might question the validity of the files knowing she just lied about her experience with the Vorlons. This isn’t a monumental moment, but it is an interesting way to look at how these different stories can play with viewers depending on viewing order.

Note of something I like while at the same time I don’t like in the Original Edit. Takashima points out that they have two hours while they wait for Kosh’s ship to decelerate after coming out of the gate. I like that they give a technical reason for why they have time before he arrives, but I feel like it would have been better to just say, “At its current speed” it will take two hours for the ship to travel the distance between the gate and the station.

One of the worst things that was taken out of the Original Edit is a conversation Garibaldi, Sinclair, and Takashima have in the core shuttle. They discuss that they want the other three primary Ambassadors there when Kosh arrives to avoid another incident like the one that happened when G’Kar arrived. WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?! What incident?!?!?!?! I want to know!!!!! This incident could have been the entire catalyst for G’Kar. What if G’Kar came to B5 with high expectations of Babylon 5 being exactly what it was meant to be, but then this incident set him on a road toward trying to ruin Babylon 5?! Of course, that isn’t the likely scenario, but what a loose end! I assume it was removed for two reasons, one it was never explained and two it is kind of self-explanatory. Obviously in context one can assume that Londo did not show up when G’Kar arrived. But still it could have been a major plot incident if JMS had wished it.
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Old December 10th 17, 11:57   #27
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Re: Reading Between The Lines - The Gathering

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Originally Posted by Looney View Post
One of my goals in starting this was to talk about some of the important aspects of why The Gathering (1993) should be watched and when it should be watched. Jumping ahead to the scene with Sinclair and Delenn in the Garden. Delenn says she is looking forward to meeting a Vorlon. I mention this because it is a definite moment in story progression that is altered if one were to watch In The Beginning (1998) before The Gathering (1993). If you watch the prequel In The Beginning (1998) first then you would know Delenn is lying to Sinclair when she pretends she has never met a Vorlon. That might alter a new viewers immediate impression of who she is and would might make someone more suspicious of her when, in that same scene, she gives Sinclair files on the Vorlons. If one had seen In The Beginning (1998) first you might question the validity of the files knowing she just lied about her experience with the Vorlons. This isn’t a monumental moment, but it is an interesting way to look at how these different stories can play with viewers depending on viewing order.

Note of something I like while at the same time I don’t like in the Original Edit. Takashima points out that they have two hours while they wait for Kosh’s ship to decelerate after coming out of the gate. I like that they give a technical reason for why they have time before he arrives, but I feel like it would have been better to just say, “At its current speed” it will take two hours for the ship to travel the distance between the gate and the station.

One of the worst things that was taken out of the Original Edit is a conversation Garibaldi, Sinclair, and Takashima have in the core shuttle. They discuss that they want the other three primary Ambassadors there when Kosh arrives to avoid another incident like the one that happened when G’Kar arrived. WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?! What incident?!?!?!?! I want to know!!!!! This incident could have been the entire catalyst for G’Kar. What if G’Kar came to B5 with high expectations of Babylon 5 being exactly what it was meant to be, but then this incident set him on a road toward trying to ruin Babylon 5?! Of course, that isn’t the likely scenario, but what a loose end! I assume it was removed for two reasons, one it was never explained and two it is kind of self-explanatory. Obviously in context one can assume that Londo did not show up when G’Kar arrived. But still it could have been a major plot incident if JMS had wished it.
Yeah, Londo didn’t turn up to greet G’Kar on his arrival, he was gambling in the casino
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