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Old March 8th 05, 04:21   #21
PsionTen
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

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We found out that "Sophie is the Omega," by way of her dead mom possessing Adrien Barbeau.
I'm glad you brought that up, because I was under the impression that it was the Professor that was possessing her. I guess it makes more sense for it to be the mother. There's still a lot that I don't understand about the whole Sophie thing ... mostly why her mother waited so long to try and kill her. Was there something that she just discovered about her daughter last season that she hadn't known all along?
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Old March 8th 05, 04:24   #22
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

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We found out that "Sophie is the Omega," by way of her dead mom possessing Adrien Barbeau.
Ruthie signed the lipstick note on the mirror with the letter "L," and had the same eyes as the late professor, which I took to mean she was again possessed by Professor Lodz.
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Old March 8th 05, 04:59   #23
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

I didn't notice the L, so, you are probably right. I did notice the eyes, but thought those could be Sophie's mom's eyes. What was Sophie's mom's first name? Did it start with an L? And didn't they call her Lady, also with an L? Ruthie has seen both Lodz and Sophie's mom, after their deaths.

As to Sophie's mom trying to kill her, that is also a complex puzzle. She was very bitter, and seemed to have a love/hate thing with Sophie, perhaps based on more than Sophie being a child of rape, if she actually was. It could be that mom was trying to save Sophie from a worse fate, or that she had only just envisioned what part Sophie was to play in upcoming events, and wanted to stop that. My (uncertain) thinking was that mom was angry at her growing relationship with Ben, for two reasons, because Scutter is Ben's father, and she hates Scutter, and therefore Ben, and the possible (unknowing) incest I mentioned earlier. That could have been her motive. It's also possible SHE was trying to test/expose Ben's powers, expecting him to save Sophie. These many complex possibilities (I'm sure there are more!), created by the great writing are why I love this show.

To answer my own question, her name was Apollonia. And, it's Scudder, not Scutter. I fianlly went to the HBO Carnivale website.
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Old March 8th 05, 05:06   #24
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

Another thing, why is Justin so protective of Norman? Is it just that he enjoys tormenting him? I understand that having Norman slaughtered by a mob at his services wouldn't play too well, but I think there is something going on that we don't know about here. Maybe Justin needs Norman, to play some part in his ascendancy. Maybe Iris knows this, and that's why she calmed Norman by telling him that she would expose Justin.
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Old March 8th 05, 05:33   #25
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

I'm probably wrong on this one, but I think Justin keeps Norman around because he wants his love and acceptance. Norman is the closest thing to a father he's ever really known and, like any son, he wants his father to be proud of him -- at least that's what I figure. But like you, I think "helpless" Norman will be his undoing in the end.
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Old March 8th 05, 09:38   #26
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

I think she was definitely possessed by the professor. Because previously, when her eyes went like that, she spoke in the professor's tone. This time the eyes were the same, and she/he was feeling along the table as if she were blind.

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I'm probably wrong on this one, but I think Justin keeps Norman around because he wants his love and acceptance. Norman is the closest thing to a father he's ever really known and, like any son, he wants his father to be proud of him -- at least that's what I figure.
Yes. That was the conclusion I came to. And also what's the point of being all powerful if there's not people around to see?

Oh, and I loved how we were talking about if Iris really was evil, and then she bashes poor Eleanor's head in with an oar!
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Old March 8th 05, 18:20   #27
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

Ok, here's my take.

I also suspect that Scudder was the one who raped Appy and is Sophie's father. It could be younger, "in his prime" Scudder. That said, "The Usher" could still be another outside entity that is yet unknown or unrevealed.

In the first episode of the first season, we see Scudder running through a cornfield, being chased by the tattoo'ed man. It leads one to believe that this was another being. It could also mean that Scudder was running from the evil within him.

Now, we see Brother Justin doing the same, though, isn't Brother Justin embracing his evil? Maybe . . . maybe not.

Another thing that it could mean is that Scudder was being chased by the Creature of Darkness that came BEFORE him. Well, not chased so much as introduced. That means, in Justin's dreams about being chased, Scudder could be the one chasing Justin now.

I've always wondered what Sophie's part in all of this was. Now, I'm starting to think that she is indeed "the omega" in that she can turn Brother Justin from his path as easy as she could turn Ben from his. It seems she brought out goodness in Brother Justin, as she was immune to his lustful charms and he was rather "inspired" by that fact.

Scudder turned from his evil fate and went into the world to try and be "just a man" (according to Samson's monologue in the first episode of Season 2.) He was a coward (according to Management / The Russian) who refused to accept his fate. Because of this, the cycle continued. Had Scudder killed Management by his own hand (or had Management killed scudder with his own hands) the cycle, I think, would have been broken. Because Scudder refused to participate, the cycle went on to the next generation.

Sophie is another link in the chain and she is the one who can either break the chain or keep it going. If she succeeds in moving Brother Justin off his path of evil, there will be no fight and the cycle will start again with the next generation.

That is just my theory. That's what they could mean by Sophie being "the omega." She is the end, one way or another.

Nice to have people to talk about this stuff with!
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Old March 9th 05, 02:24   #28
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

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Oh, and I loved how we were talking about if Iris really was evil, and then she bashes poor Eleanor's head in with an oar!
Antony, I don't doubt that Iris is evil, although she might not see herself as evil. At least overtly, she believes she is serving God, and her brother, who she thinks is a man of God. Of course, that doesn't make what she has done any less evil. But, if she really believes that, or did until recently, her future actions could be quite different, even if not less murderous. She just might actually turn on her brother, as she has said she would. I'm by no means certain of this, I am just saying it is a possibility. And yes, I now realize it is certain that Ruthie was possessed by Lodz, and I think P10 is right about why Justin keeps Norman around.
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Old March 9th 05, 03:06   #29
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

Alluveal, yes, it is nice to have others to bounce our conjectures off of. You have some interesting ones. There are a couple I don't think likely, but in this show, you never know.

As I've said, I think Sophie has a special part to play. I'm virtually certain that she is the daughter of either Management, or Scudder, which may well give her abilities that we haven't seen yet. We do know that she has precognitive powers that she thought were her mother's alone. IT could be that Justin felt that there was something different about her, or that they were related, and that is why he didn't pursue his lust with her. I do think that there is still some struggle going on in Justin, between good and evil, but I don't think that Sophie can turn Justin towards good, or turn Ben from his confrontation with the evil in Justin. I do think it possible that Sophie was influenced by Management to play a certain role. We will see.

I think Management's goal is to stop the cycle, so, if killing Scudder, or dying by his hands, would do it, Management would have done that. So, I don't think that would stop the cycle. I'm not sure if Ben killing Justin will stop it either. Ben may have to give his life while doing so to stop the cycle.

Another thing to ponder... what if Sophie is pregnant by Ben?
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Old March 9th 05, 05:44   #30
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Re: Hands up who loves Carnivāle

Well, here's what I think so far on the child thing.

Management (aka The Russian) + (?) unknown woman = Brother Justin (creature of darkness)

*Management may have fathered Iris as well, though I think Iris has a different father. She is the eldest.

Scudder + Ms. Hawkins = Ben (Creature of Light)

Appy + "The tattooed man" (aka "The Usher) = Sophie (fate / role unknown.)

It looks like it skips generations. Scudder was the Creature of Darkness and his son is the Creature of Light.

Management (aka the Russian) was the Creature of Light and his son is the Creature of Darkness.

If we go by that simple analysis, it means that Ben's son will be evil and Brother Justin's will be good.

HOWEVER, since Jade brought up the possibility that Sophie and Ben could have a child, it's hard to tell. Sophie's fate / role is unknown. If her father WAS evil, that means Sophie is good (going along the above formula.)

Good Being + Normal person = Bad child
Bad Being + Normal person = Good child

Good Being + Good Being = ???

Could be an extra evil child. Could be that the genes cancel one another out and you truly will have a divine being, above and beyond what Ben is. Terrifying to imagine.

If Sophie and Brother Justin end up becoming intimate and she gets pregnant by him, their child would be equally as uncertain. It could be good or bad.

Another thought is that "The Tattooed Man" really wasn't a man, but some kind of strange entity, some kind of essence that gives power to either the Creature of Light OR the Creature of Darkness. Perhaps that entity manifested itself into physical form and that's what Appy was being raped by. She did, after all, have one foot in the land of the living and one foot in the land of the dead. Not sure that one holds water, but as you said, with this show, anything's possible.
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