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The Minbari suck

But to my understanding... they didn't take initative in snuffing out any species. Their previous wars caused civilizations to die... but I fail to locate a mention... of them having destroyed another civilization directly.
There is one. In the Crusade episode "Racing the Night" the Shadows used their virus. The aliens survived by freezing their people in underground bunkers.
 
Which will give them a HUGE advantage if they ever have another war with humanity, after Kevin the designer has removed all pockets from the Earthforce uniforms! :LOL:

Just reading through this thread, nothing sensible to add to this discussion at the moment, but that really threw me off my chair *rofl*
 
They were willing to fulfill a wish... even if it meant utter contravention of other wishes. Their priciples of operation did not seem to include any ethical calculation -- just offering resources to whoever happened to accept.

As I understood it, they weren't just looking for anyone accepting, they looked for the right individual and civilization to start things with. (I might be wrong but I had the feeling, G'kar would not have gone on with this, like Londo did. I really need to watch that season again.)
I mean both species did not cared for the individual, also they might have cared at the beginning for the younger races, later they only cared to prove their point of view.
They just have different set of values and they totally got caught in the web of their own "morals".

But to my understanding... they didn't take initative in snuffing out any species. Their previous wars caused civilizations to die... but I fail to locate a mention... of them having destroyed another civilization directly.

It would not have made much sense if they did, eliminating telepath on Narn, or punishing civilizations that seemed to powerful to be left in the "game", was one thing, but their goal was to strengthen civilization by having them quarrel with each others. If they being powerful as they were ran around blasting away entire civilizations, it wouldn't have the same effect.


Where Vorlons held influence... one might suspect that diversity was not tolerated, individuality was alien... and even if those who conformed could peacefully live out their lives... what their lives brought... was decided by others.

Which comes very close to describing certain aspects of the Minbari society. Strict rules and guidelines that place the group above the individual etc ...

Over the centuries and millennia which passed between Shadow wars... Vorlons probably caused equal loss. It was merely that Shadow movement caused intense destruction... while Vorlon activities were low-key, and quietly took their toll.

Wasn't it like the shadows coming out of hiding, starting these conflicts , while the Vorlons gathered the races they had "build up" in the last millenia and let them march directly against the shadows? I bet that made up for the previous destructions caused by the Shadows.

For an individual member of the younger races... the effect of seriously obstructing a Shadow... would probably result in injury or death.

Getting into the way of a Vorlon... would more likely preserve physical health. The individual involved would merely start doing things their's previous personality would have refused... making choices their's previous personality would never have made.

Death of personality, the most hypocritical punishment imaginable. But actually the Shadows did that, too. If
they can use a certain individual, they do it - like they used Anna.

I perceive both depicted civilizations... as absolutely unacceptable with regard to which *means* they employed. If they had a disagreement, they should have gone after each other.

As much as I agree, with you on how horrible and unacceptable their methods were, the whole point is that they could not have solved their conflict by going at each other directly. It wasn't about who was the winner at the end of the war, it was about who's ideologie was better.

One could say, their crime began, when they abandoned their post by letting their conflict of ideas become more important than taking care of the other races. But I think this was the plan from the beginning. I think the worst "fucked up" fellow is Lorien (Is that the name of the FIRST ONE, I don't remember clearly how it was written or sounded like)

He sat there all this millenias, just biding his time waiting for the right moment. Said moment was when in his point of view the younger races were ready. He kind of told Sheridian he did not liked what they did, but he wasn't stopping them. No, he knew exactly how each of them were ticking and had planned this whole conflict to begin with. Lorien knew which buttons he had to push, when he finally gathered everyone and the younger races showed them that they were not appreciated anymore, they really appeared like frightened and lost little children. Because that is what they are, compared to Lorien.
I would not be surprised if he or others that were gone had taught them their ways in the first place. I mean their horizon was so limited, despite their technological level, it was very disturbing in the whole picture.

At least the younger races (including the Minbari) have made decisions for themselves. Of course there are still old rules and patterns of behaviours, but this generation of races is far more diverse in their options than the previous one's which seemed quite single minded in their views of the world.

Like somoeone pointed out, the Shadows have no real leaders, but neither do the Vorlons, unless you see Lorien as the boss behind it all. He was the only one that everyone paid attention, too.

Maybe he realised that such strong indoctrination is not the best way and created this situation to educate the younger races better. Then again, despite our sense of individualism (that is strong in all races in different degrees) every race follows still one principale, they have a lead person or group and they follow them "blindly". Of course only until the next one comes along ... who knows if the old races (before the younger ones came) had not been up far better than we, after all they are a lot mor alien than any of the other species we encounter in Babylon 5.
 
Like somoeone pointed out, the Shadows have no real leaders, but neither do the Vorlons, unless you see Lorien as the boss behind it all.

Just because we never met them doesn't mean they didn't have any leaders. I would find it difficult to concieve of these races with such complex and far reaching plans not having architects behind them.
 
There definately were stratigists. Unless one infers that there was no individuality, ala Borg.

But what kind of hierarchy did they have? It is an interesting question.
 
It's a fascinating question. If I could pick the next subject for a B5 book it would be about either the Shadows or the Vorlons and discuss their origins, homeworld and socital structure.

But hey, even the Borg had a leader. The drones lost their individuality but there was certainly a queen controlling it all.
 
Deaded, I think Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum is the most you'll ever see on origins, homeworld, and societal structure of the Shadows. Vorlons, you aren't likely to see much more on either.

It's important to the awe involved not to de-mystify the Shadows and the Vorlons. That's like when you watch a show for years and years, and the one couple finally gets together and gets married. The show no longer works after that in most cases.
 
But hey, even the Borg had a leader.

That was an unfortunate decision. IMO, the introduction of a "Borg Queen" is when the franchise jumped the shark.

It's important to the awe involved not to de-mystify the Shadows and the Vorlons. That's like when you watch a show for years and years, and the one couple finally gets together and gets married. The show no longer works after that in most cases.

Agreed
 
Well, I may have a Vorlon as my avatar, but you'll note that I'm "KoshFan" and not "VorlonFan." A great deal of why I love Kosh is that he was willing to go against the wishes of his own species to help the younger races. And note that the Vorlons get downright homicidal when Kosh isn't around. I think he was reining them in, and when he was out of commission or dead, they lost his moderating influence and went wild.
 
We got a lot of insight into the Shadows during the final book of the Technomage trilogy. I'd like to go further. I understand about keeping the mystery but that doesn't stop me from wanting! :)
 
Well you can't HONESTLY say you want to know something and also say you'd rather not know. It probably depends on the kind of person you are. Some want to really seek and find out, and others are more pleased to accept the not knowing.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong, I would love to be de-mystified, I was speaking to why JMS will most likely never do so.
 
I would be hopeful that JMS could create new mysteries within the old, once he had revealed the inner workings of the older races. Often times the new info generates new questions. He very likely will not. But I think it could work to an advantage, if done properly.

Trade in old "legends" for new micro"legends". ;)
 
The Minbari suck? You need a whole thread and a lot of philosophizing to demonstrate that? :rolleyes: It's really very simple:

Anyone who doesn't drink beer sucks.
The Minbari don't drink beer.
Therefore, The Minbari SUCK!

What more do you need? :p :p :p ;) :D
 
The Minbari suck? You need a whole thread and a lot of philosophizing to demonstrate that? :rolleyes: It's really very simple:

Anyone who doesn't drink beer sucks.
The Minbari don't drink beer.
Therefore, The Minbari SUCK!

What more do you need? :p :p :p ;) :D


Ah, flawless..........logic?
:rolleyes:
:LOL:


The Minbari do wine a lot though!

But, Minbari NEVER whine. :cool:
:D
 
Ok, who wants to make the bumper sticker...
"Minbari suck, Andrew Swallow."

/me runs and ducks and covers!
 
Ok, who wants to make the bumper sticker...
"Minbari suck, Andrew Swallow."

/me runs and ducks and covers!

Why are you using my name? I did not start this thread and the only posting I made was about the Shadows.
 

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