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Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by JMS

hypatia

hypatia

Regular
Please feel free to delete this thread if it's inappropriate. But I know some folks here do like and read the B5 books, and don't necessarily visit the moderated JMS board regularly.

Have you folks seen what has exploded there? In the "An Open Plea To Mr. Straczynski" thread?

Just to cut to the chase, it seems Mongoose publishing wants to publish some B5 novels. Claiming cooperation from JMS, and to be working from outlines from JMS, a small nuclear bomb went off.

:eek:

I'm including some ofJMS's quotes here from his post this morning. The bottom line is: JMS is not endorsing this project at all. He is, rather kindly I think, calling them fan fiction.

This is public because you have been making
public claims about my involvement, which led fans of B5 to ask me about it in a public manner, to which I responded.
Click to expand...

So you were planning to use my scripts, without so much as informing
me, and pillage my notes online, which are incidentally my property, as
the basis for your novels.

Lovely.
Click to expand...

Meaning by adapting my scripts, without telling me. Are you aware that when someone adapts someone else's scripts there generally has to be some kind of arrangement made, plus something as cordial as, oh, I don't know...telling the person who wrote those scripts that you're
DOING it?
Click to expand...

Let me make something as clear as I possibly can.

This is not about money, not about The Deal, not about a free trip to
England.


First, this is about being honest with the fans. I have worked very
hard, since the very inception of Babylon 5, to always be as straight
as humanly possible with them, because the one thing about the truth is
that it always comes out, one way or another. Everything I say is
archived...if I prevaricate, if I lie, if I misrepresent, those words
are sitting there, waiting to be used as a bludgeon...a blunt
instrument that I willingly created for that very reason.


To date they have not been used in that way. Because I have always
been as straight with the fans as anyone mortal can be. Even when the
darkest hours came, and very few would believe me about how and why
Claudia left, time passed and sure enough the words I posted online
were shown to be true by her own comments made in the aftermath,
sometimes years later.


My involvement with the so-called B5 novels from Mongoose has been
mis-stated and misrepresented, and the conduct of pillaging my scripts
and posts without my knowledge or permission is dubious at best,
dishonorable at worst.


Second, and most important of all...this is about what drove the
creation of Babylon 5 in the first place: an attempt to ensure a
certain quality of storytelling within the framework of a consistent
universe. The first Dell books were not what they should have been
because they tended to operate outside canon; so steps were taken to
bring the Del Rey books into canon, working closely with the publisher,
and the fans across the board agree that those novels were better than
those which preceded them.


That is how we have dealt with every single licensee to date...with the
exception of this situation, and these books, which brings to mind the
following point:


You have also stated that these books are "100% canon." No, they are
not. Because for something to be canon means not that they have been
researched, but that the events described therein will be referenced
elsewhere, that they will be viewed as "having happened" in the B5
universe...as the Del Rey novels, and my own short B5 stories, are
canon. Things referenced in those stories can show up in any future B5
films or TV projects because they *happened* in our story, in this
universe.


The events in the Mongoose books do not fit this criteria. They are
licensed B5 fan fiction, nothing more, nothing less. And lots of folks
like that stuff, and that's all to the good.


But do not say that they are "100% canon."


And I have no desire to become involved with these novels, and will not
endorse them. It ain't the money, it ain't the Deal...I am for rent,
but I am not for sale, because I have an obligation to the viewers of
this show to be consistent and to always work for the utmost quality in
our storytelling within the framework of a consistent universe.


If you want to create a pocket universe, feel free. But it's got
nothing to do with the B5 universe insofar as I am concerned.


And leave my scripts and my notes out of it. I do not approve their
use.


This conversation is at an end.


jms
Click to expand...
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Mongoose have been trying to contact JMS for months. They received the scripts and notes via Warner Brothers. They purchased authorisation from Warner Brothers who had purchased ownership of the universe from JMS.

JMS is not as innocent as he thinks, also if he wants to keep control of the Babylon 5 he needs to answer his emails. The Mongoose people may not be quite as trustworthy as they should be.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Maybe Mongoose shouldn't be trying to contact jms via email as if they just came across a profile on Yahoo, or trying to contact him via public newsgroup pleas, when they're supposedly trying to be professional and create a professional product.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Just out of curiosity, what's your source for
They received the scripts and notes via Warner Brothers.
Click to expand...
? All I read is that they had access to the scripts and I can point to various sources where they are, indeed available but not sanctioned. Anybody can access JMS's posts, too, of course. I'm not saying they didn't get them from WB, I'm just curious as to how you learned that.

Without access to the original email exchange that caused the rift, I don't think anybody can really guage who was or wasn't reasonable there.

Since then, though, imo, Mongoose's behavior has been suspect, to put it mildly.

Jan
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

I will turn the question around, if they paid for a franchise from Warner Brothers without getting that sort of information Mongoose would have been very remise.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

At what point, then? They've had the license (not franchise) for some time now in order to do the Role playing game books. Did that make them privy to all of the B5 scripts? I doubt it. As for them being remiss...yeah, we already know that, don't we?
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

You know I understand JMS's position on this, however it would have been really nice if they could have worked together. Think how great it would be to have new JMS sanctioned canon B5 novels coming out by talented authors (like the "Technomage" trilogy). Alas, from "Crusade", to "Rangers" to "Memory of Shadows" the B5 fan is left to wonder what might have been.

I wish someone would wake up and see that there is a demand for new B5 product. Sadly the Mongoose novels will show that there is NO demand because a good fraction of the fan base (myself included) will not even acknowledge them. Another missed opportunity and another wrong message sent.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

You know I understand JMS's position on this, however it would have been really nice if they could have worked together. Think how great it would be to have new JMS sanctioned canon B5 novels coming out by talented authors (like the "Technomage" trilogy).
Click to expand...

Exactly.


Alas, from "Crusade", to "Rangers" to "Memory of Shadows" the B5 fan is left to wonder what might have been.
Click to expand...

We're in this position a lot. Also, since the B5:TMoS backers own B5:TMoS, I doubt it could come out in novel form.


I wish someone would wake up and see that there is a demand for new B5 product.
Click to expand...

Would be nice, wouldn't it?


Sadly the Mongoose novels will show that there is NO demand because a good fraction of the fan base (myself included) will not even acknowledge them. Another missed opportunity and another wrong message sent.
Click to expand...

Murphy's Law. Given what happened to Crusade, Warner Brothers "losing" all of the B5 & Crusade CGI, and the Rangers pilot we eventually got, I'm kind of amazed that we actually got all nine novels of the Del Rey B5 trilogies, and that they were as good as they were.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Wow, how sad. Mongoose should have shut up, really. Airing it like this in public is very unprofessional.

JMS on the otherhand has occasionally mentioned that if people were interested in doing anything B5 that they should come to him, yet he reacts like this. Given some of his previous posts on the subject, it probably came down to money... Fair enough, the man has to earn a living...

The thing is, Mongoose work very hard to release new B5 RPG products, minatures and source books with lots of new content that are selling quite well for that kind of thing in the UK. Similar products kept the Trek and Star Wars franchises alive when they were not on TV or the big screen. It helps to keep that vital base level of fan-dom going.


They did some things the wrong way, but JMS could have been more amenable, realising that they are a small UK outfit with limited funds.

As for the pillaging of scripts, it does happen all they time with tie-in fiction. Depending on the legal rights behind all of this, it may be perfectly ok for Mongoose to do so, as long as Warners ok it all... So JMS may eventually be shouting about nothing, even if he has the moral argument to back it all up (which he probably does...) :(

Either way, its bad news for all of B5 fandom and the franchise in general that an agreement could not have been reached...
 
By the way he behaves on this matter is easy to see why none of the B5 projects were greenlighted anymore.

He's clearly overeacting, AGAIN!!!
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

I'm tempted to agree with you on that, but he obviously and rightously feels a bit hard done by... B5 is afterall his baby..
Check this:

AC wrote:
>
> So, are you claiming this Mathew guy is lying in the podcast?

Not having heard the podcast, I really can't say. All that I can say
is that there has been zero coordination or approvals between Mongoose
and anyone else that I know of. To date, again as far as I know, WB
hasn't been shown what they're doing, certainly I haven't seen it,
don't know what it is, nobody has signed off or approved anything that
they're doing in terms of story, content, characterization, anything.

In the long history of B5, we have never had a situation where a
licensee has decided to just go off and do their own thing without
coordinating the creative aspects through WB and myself. They're doing
this completely off on their own. No other B5 licensed company has
decided, in essence, "screw you, we don't need you," which has been my
perception of their approach from early on, when they first approached
me to try and (in my view) reluctantly get me involved...an initial
approach that was absurd, and insulting. When they came back, the
situation did not measurably improve and the attitude was one of, and
I'm admittedly characterizing it here, sod off, we don't need you, we
can go directly to the fans, who don't need you, we can do it better.
And they went on to kind of poison the well with the fans in that
regard.

And that's where it ended. They've gone off and done their thing,
without any kind of creative approval as far as I know, which I believe
is also a requirement of their contract. Be that as it may...whatever
they're doing, it has no bearing on the B5 universe insofar as I'm
concerned, which is again why I cannot endorse this on a personal or
creative basis.

jms
Click to expand...

From http://www.jmsnews.net/msg.aspx?id=1-17545

I don't know if he is refering to the novels here, or the RPG stuff they've been making for a while as to the breach of conflict. Mongoose have been trying to get JMS involved for at least a year IIRC in a very public way. I would not call that reluctant or insulting, they've been quite gracious in attempting to engage fans and JMS...

JMS never likes to get to too angry on the 'net without a lawyer involved. I'm betting Mongoose are having their contracts obligations examined as I type. It would be a shame if they lost the contract as a result of all of this...

IIRC, they offered him 10% of all profits to do a fair amount of planning work, and as far as I can tell he ignored their emails, so they went public (which was a poor move).

They recived mateiral via Warners, maybe assuming or not assuming he was involved and based their plans around it. They then claimed online that he was involved to some degree, which he denies. What is true there we will probably never know...

There are two sides to every story, and i'm sure if they were all locked in a room for a few hours with a lot of coffee face to face, it could all be smoothed over.

What a shame indeed it has come to this.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Just a quick overview of the public JMS/Mongoose online activity:

In October 2005 a poster asked about B5 novels and I posted what I'd read on the Mongoose site as well as what Tony Lee had posted on this site. I asked for JMS's comment.

JMS replied with the news that Mongoose had contacted him and that their offer was unacceptable and that he'd washed his hands of the novels.

At that time Mr. Sprange posted on the moderated newsgroup as well as at least one other that he wanted to reopen communications with JMS. There was no further comment from JMS. EDIT: It was in one of these posts that he gave details on what they'd offered.

Last week somebody asked about the novels again and I posted a list that Mr. Sprange had posted. JMS chimed in that he didn't endorse them in any way.

Somebody posted on JMSnews.com that Mr. Sprange had claimed that the novels were based on outlines from JMS in the recent B5 podcast and this was reposted to the moderated newsgroup. JMS reacted to that both before and after reviewing a transcript of the podcast, addressing Mr. Sprange directly.

Mr. Sprange never responded to that particular post of JMS's but did post his Open Plea to JMS and answered other posts.

JMS answered the Open Plea point by point. Mr. Sprange has answered. All of the relevant posts can be found at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated?lnk=li under the threads 'ATTN JMS: Short Stories', 'Anything going on?' and 'An Open Plea to Mr. Straczynski'.

EDIT: The recent posts are the ones referenced above, not the ones from last year.

Hope this helps.
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

IIRC, they offered him 10% of all profits to do a fair amount of planning work,
Click to expand...

"five hundred bucks per book"

From http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17407
<font color="orange">Mongoose asked me to consult with them, since they are doing just a
couple of books and as I understand it ONLY for release in the
UK...asked if I could help come up with some stories for them, or
provide material from myh notes, proofread the manuscripts, make
corrections, maybe write an intro, and do lots of other stuff...and I
said okay, great, what are you going to pay for my work?

At first, silence. As if they were stunned that I would actually ask
to be paid for my time and work. Then finally, they came back
with...five hundred bucks per book.

To which I responded, "You have GOT to be kidding me."</font>
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

It was in one of Matthew Sprange's posts in October that the other figure came out, KoshN.

Jan
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

As for the pillaging of scripts, it does happen all they time with tie-in fiction. Depending on the legal rights behind all of this, it may be perfectly ok for Mongoose to do so, as long as Warners ok it all... So JMS may eventually be shouting about nothing, even if he has the moral argument to back it all up (which he probably does...)
Click to expand...

It seems to me that he has a very legitimate complaint if the company was starting to claim that these books would be "100% cannon" and that they were working with JMS and working with his "outlines".

Wouldn't you be a little mad, too, if someone not only basically rips off your ideas (maybe legally) but smiles and says this is with your permission and cooperation? :rolleyes:

And I see from last night that he's still trying. Hmmm. After JMS's last post on the subject, I think there really isn't much more to say, is there?
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

Thanks Jan, that was useful...

As for who offered who what we will never know. The fact that BOTH parties were talking about finance on public message boards is not exactly a good sign though...
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

It seems to me that he has a very legitimate complaint if the company was starting to claim that these books would be "100% cannon" and that they were working with JMS and working with his "outlines".
Click to expand...

According to Mr. Sprange's post, they'd been given permission to use '100% canon' by WB until that was withdrawn recently.

Wouldn't you be a little mad, too, if someone not only basically rips off your ideas (maybe legally) but smiles and says this is with your permission and cooperation? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That part's going to be interesting if WB did, indeed give permission for Mongoose to actually base novels on JMS's (and apparently Fiona Avery's) scripts. It still doesn't excuse the implication that JMS was actively involved, though.

As for somebody's earlier post that JMS is/was overreacting...I don't see that we have enough information to judge. Without knowing what correspondence occurred *before* all this became public, there's no way of knowing if JMS's characterization of Mongoose's reluctance to get him involved is accurate or not.

Jan
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

I just checked out M. Sprange's latest post on the thread Jan linked to, its about number 45 or so...


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/msg/a8986baba812351d?

He notes that Warners have approved quite a few bits of work in the past few weeks and given their output in my local Forbidden Planet store i've no reason to doubt him.

Its obvious that JMS is no longer involved as heavily in B5 licensing as he might want to be, or indeed as we would like him to be. Make of that what you will. It may show as someone else stated on the board that he is miffed at the WB for muscling in on his baby.

As a means of circumnavigating this problem, Mongoose have tried going open handedly to him, be it in a clumsly way... and he has either ignored them or posted publically.

I figure the least he could do is try and be a bit more amenable, they are after all pretty much his only practicing licensee, its hardly a good way of keeping a franchise in good shape.

I've also read all of the posts and am failing to see exactly where Sprange lied. Could somone point that out?

i'll shut up on this for now, but I am of the opinion that both sides are acting a little off kilter and could be a bit more professional...
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

I just checked out M. Sprange's latest post on the thread Jan linked to, its about number 45 or so...

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/msg/a8986baba812351d?

He notes that Warners have approved quite a few bits of work in the past few weeks and given their output in my local Forbidden Planet store i've no reason to doubt him.
Click to expand...

Yes, except that he keeps seeming to assume that JMS is talking about *all* of Mongoose's projects as a whole even though JMS has already corrected him that the subject is the *novels*. I doubt that JMS asked WB Licensing about anything but the novels. Why would he?

I've also read all of the posts and am failing to see exactly where Sprange lied. Could somone point that out?
Click to expand...

For that you'd need to go to the Podcast #13 which JMS quoted. Mr. Sprange claims to have been misunderstood or to have misunderstood what was asked but he's quoted as saying that the books were based on outlines (*not* scripts) from JMS and that JMS's involvement was 'less lately' when there'd never been any.

Jan
 
Re: Mongoose publishing B5 books, not approved by

That may well be because they've not yet got anything to submit... its all still at the planning stage and they would still like to get JMS involved.

Gotcha, i'll check the podcast ... Either he was massaging the truth or misinformed by the WB on that, but the latter seems unlikely... This seems to be the main area of contention. Until MS (as opposed to JMS...) fesses up to what he meant here, its a bit difficult to see his point of view.

Run down public sector worker that I am, I would Iove to point the finger at the evil multi national media conglomerate though...
 
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