The First White Star

KoshFan · Mar 4, 2003

I was just watching "TKO," and I noticed two things. One, the episode wasn't quite as bad as I thought it was (I was only watching it for the sake of completeness but I've decided it's not bad). Two, and more interesting, is the name of the liner that Rabbi Koslov and Walker Smith come in on.

Yep, that's right. The White Star.

Interesting foreshadowing. Now, I might be reading too much into it, but I see something here. We have Walker Smith, frequently called "the bravest of his race" (although I say Sheridan at Z'ha'dum tops him), and also the best fighter Garibaldi's seen, which is saying something. We also have Rabbi Koslov, who has a very good understanding of the heart and spirit. Strength, bravery, and deep understanding. The crews of the later White Stars could be said to be the same.

Also, Sinclair says something in Hebrew to Koslov as Koslov departs. What is it?

Recoil · Mar 4, 2003

Three things:

1) Yea, I that episode isnt as bad as people say. IMO there are others that are much worse. I kinda liked it.

2) I do remember them calling the liner the White Star. Probably was a little line dropped as foreshadowing. Not that anyone would ever catch it, or know, during its first run, but it was something after seeing the series once through you can pick up on.

3) The Hebrew phrase Sinclair says is "Recoil is your daddy"

A_M_Swallow · Mar 4, 2003

The most famous ship of the real White Star Line is the Titanic.

Strifeguard · Mar 4, 2003

I don't think TKO is a bad episode at all. IMHO, Garibaldi being a "buddy" is an important part of his character, and one that we don't see often enough. He and Sinclair being "old friends" lent a level of comfort and companioship to the show that we never really see again. Garibaldi and Franklin get torn apart by stims, Sheridan and Garibaldi are never really close, and then completely fall apart between Bester and booze, and Sinclair has to spend enternity in a time-loop fighting the Shadows...

That said, I think that the relationship between Walker Smith and Garibaldi is fairly typical of what an actually friendship with Garibaldi would be like. It adds more depth to Garibaldi. Also, I do wish that the sports bar they go to would have been used again (or was it? I don't recall any other times, but I'm far from perfect). It was considerably more "socially acceptable" than either the casino or the Dark Star.

RW7427 · Mar 4, 2003

"Recoil is your daddy"

Um, I don't think so.

It was really "Eat at RW's salad bar.**

channe · Mar 4, 2003

No, it was "Read Rangers Redux and get your arse subscribed to the ABYSS Jeremiah newsletter."

KoshFan · Mar 4, 2003

Ah, I see. So what he REALLY said was, "Kosh is a truly fascinating character."

If anyone wants to take that little request seriously, that would be cool too.

hypatia · Mar 5, 2003

I don't think TKO is a bad episode at all. IMHO, Garibaldi being a "buddy" is an important part of his character, and one that we don't see often enough. He and Sinclair being "old friends" lent a level of comfort and companioship to the show that we never really see again.

Hi, Strifeguard. That is an aspect of the early B5 episodes I never considered before. I think you have a very good point. It shows Garibaldi more as a normal every day human instead of what we see more of later. Later Garibaldi is everything from super-security-guy past-him-nothing-slips to the desperate and also very real Garibaldi we see in his troubled time, when he is trying to cope.

He does seem a bit more of a buddy in this episode and maybe also in Gropos, IMHO.

Thanks for mentioning it. It's an interesting observation.

Jomar · Mar 5, 2003

I didn't hate TKO but it is one I never have felt the need to watch again. Now that I have read the comments above perhaps I'll go back and give it another look. Garibaldi was never my favorite character, but he was very important to the whole story and sometimes it is good to reconsider things that passed by earlier.

One episode I really hated was Grail. Most others I can watch and fast forward through the irritating parts.

KoshFan · Mar 5, 2003

Grail was kind of cute. Predictable, though, and plagued by bad acting. I personally think it could have been vastly improved by keeping the original ending, in which the real Kosh showed up and fried the Nakaleen feeder.

Of course that would have deprived us of a truly great Kosh line:
"Nobody knows what you look like. It makes some people a little nervous."
[Kosh] "Good. [/Kosh]

Recoil · Mar 6, 2003

I dont remember reading about that being the original ending...where did you hear that?

RW7427 · Mar 6, 2003

I thought that line was between Kosh and Sheridan.

Nancy · Mar 6, 2003

I kinda liked Grail. I liked the line when the judge says something like "Why am I always stuck with these cases?"

KoshFan · Mar 6, 2003

I'm dead certain it's Kosh and Sinclair, but I think there's a similar exchange with Sheridan later on.

And, IIRC, I got the original ending from something JMS posted somewhere. They dropped it because they thought it was too much like the deus ex machina in Deathwalker.

Of course, Kosh sort of specializes in surprises like that, but they didn't want to lay it on too thick that early.

GShans · Mar 6, 2003

I personally think it could have been vastly improved by keeping the original ending, in which the real Kosh showed up and fried the Nakaleen feeder.

oh that would have been so cool to see, that alone would have made it my favorite S1 episode.

so, did they actually finish filming that part, or was it changed in script phase?

KoshFan · Mar 6, 2003

Script, probably, and even if they'd shot it that would have been so CGI intensive that I highly doubt there'd be any good footage out there at all.

Ah well, we'll just have to imagine the possibilities.

EvilSpice · Mar 7, 2003

Sinclair says "lehitraot" which means "good bye" or "be seeing you"

hypatia · Mar 7, 2003

I admit it: I liked the Grail episode. Maybe I never get tired of the old "whiny wimp learns he can be more" theme. I also liked the Barclay (sp?) episodes of Star Trek TNG.

I think Kosh wasting a creature that was impersonating him would make perfect sense, actually. He'd be darned well powerful enough to pull it off, I'd think. And he'd have the motivation to do so, as well. IMHO.

KoshFan · Mar 7, 2003

Thanks, EvilSpice.

It makes sense to have Kosh waste the feeder, but it made more sense (at the time) to make Kosh more limited. Now that we know what he is and how cool he is, we prefer to see more of him, but way back when, it was better to downplay him for a bit.

Elenopa · Mar 7, 2003

I like 'Grail', if only for the pre-title sequence.

I remember watching it for the first time with my brother (now no longer with us), and really freaking out when that tenticle retreated back inside what we thought was Kosh's encounter suit. It shows just how good the writing is at creating the mystery of Vorlons. It was very much a case of,

"WOOOAH!!!!! Do we get to see a Vorlon?!!!"

The First White Star

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