Point of No return Question ??

I was watching this ep and a question poped up.When Lady Morella tells Londo that he has three chances for redemption to avoid the fire that awaits for him at the end of journey and that he has already wasted to others .What were the other two chances for redeption ?

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

was it not that he had already wasted 2 oppurtunities and had 3 other chances.... and was that in severed dreams...?

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

was it not that he had already wasted 2 oppurtunities and had 3 other chances.... and was that in severed dreams...?

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I think that's right. And it was Point of No Return, not Severed Dreams.

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

Yes, it was in "Point of No Return" not "Severed Dreams".

The two wasted chances might have been when he lied about the Emperor's dying words (in "The Coming of Shadows") and ignored his best friend's dying wish (Urza Jaddo in "Knives").

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

My assumptions always were that the lost chances were the Eye (see Signs and Portents) and the decision to follow Lord Refa and not Vir in making war on the Narns (see The Coming of Shadows).

This wasn't a part of SD, however. It was part of Point of No Return. The ep right before SD.

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

This wasn't a part of SD, however. It was part of Point of No Return. The ep right before SD.

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Chalk this bit up to the Department of Redundency Department.

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

All right I goofed jeez jump all over me I changed the heading .

Re: Severed Dreams Question ??

There was a detailed debate about this quite some time ago.

I sure wish I could remember people's ideas on the matter.

He wasted two chances....

One of them had to be when he lied about the Emperors last words. The other.... probably was accepting Mordan’s help, but really I am not sure.

Save the eye that does not see... Probably save G'Kar (only one eye). He does that several times throughout in direct or indirect ways, not to mention probably a few times in the Centaury Trilogy, and without G'Kar Lando with the keeper would have lived.

Not kill the one who is already dead... I am almost completely sure that is Sheridan 17 years in the future (see the final prophecy for why I doubt it). Sheridan died at Za’Ha’Dum, hence, already dead. If Lando killed Sheridan, the alliance would not have helped out after Lando's death. It could be Mordan, he is sort of dead inside, and if Lando didn't kill him, the allies of the shadows would not have been pissed and all could have been good.

At the last, surrender yourself to your greatest fear knowing it will destroy you. I want to say that this would have been not destroying the shadow ships in 406 Into the Fire knowing that it would destroy Centaury Prime. Yet this is his FINAL chance at redemption, meaning the other two should happen first. So it probably means letting G'Kar kill him. Then again if we watch the series in order, and it is letting Centaury Prime get destroyed by the Vorlons, it would be the last of the three prophecies we see fulfilled.

EnforcerSG wrote
He wasted two chances....

[...]

At the last, surrender yourself to your greatest fear knowing it will destroy you. I want to say that this would have been not destroying the shadow ships in 406 Into the Fire knowing that it would destroy Centaury Prime. Yet this is his FINAL chance at redemption, meaning the other two should happen first. So it probably means letting G'Kar kill him. Then again if we watch the series in order, and it is letting Centaury Prime get destroyed by the Vorlons, it would be the last of the three prophecies we see fulfilled.

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I think this one means "Accept the keeper".

/IAS

I've stated my opinion on this issue before, but why not again?

Saving the eye that does not see is fairly clearly G'Kar's eye. I very firmly believe that Morden is the man who is already dead -- especially considering how much was made of that in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum." Furthermore, if Sheridan had been that man, and Londo hadn't killed him, then he wouldn't have needed the third chance at redemption... and speaking as a storyteller, there's no way he's not going to need it. If you've got three chances and you're fictional, you're doomed to blow the first two. Sorry.

Which brings us to the last... "surrendering to his greatest fear, knowing it will destroy him." I too believe this means accepting the keeper.

Although Londo is fairly ambitious early on, he is honestly sincere (at least by the beginning of S4) in his repeated assertion that all he wants is to serve the Centauri people. His willingness to sacrifice his life to avert the Vorlons is more than enough evidence of this. So, bearing this in mind, what is Londo? A misguided servant, trying to do the right thing but too often failing. To betray the Centauri people would be crushing. This, of course, is more or less what the Drakh are asking him to do. It's a bitter choice: sell out your planet or we kill millions of your people. So in one way, bowing to the Drakh is an act of self-destruction for Londo.

In a more personal way, Londo has cherished his freedom and his power. He has come to realize that he always had power, that he always could have done something (he came to this conclusion, I believe, in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari"). Submitting to the Drakh will rob him of all that power, and finally, after all that time of him saying "I have no choice," he can say it with absolute truth.

Finally, and probably most significantly, when Londo has decided to accept the keeper but has not actually done so yet, he goes and talks with G'Kar. In the course of their conversation G'Kar finally forgives Londo -- and Londo needs G'Kar's forgiveness more than anything else. Londo's concerned by what he may have to do under the influence of the keeper, but G'Kar, not knowing the problem, reassures him and says that he believes Londo is a good person trying to do the right thing.

If G'Kar believe that Londo is redeemed at that point, and can in fact forgive him for the first time, then I believe Londo's decision to accept the keeper is his third, final, and successful shot at redemption.

Londo's greatest fear is being killed by G'Kar.

No matter how much he wanted to be friends with G'Kar or at peace or whatever, the fact is that their people is and were enemies, as they were. Being destroyed by a Narn leader would be the worst way for someone like him to go, especially when that Narn is his rival of so long. Most importantly, he had premonitions of that very thing happening. How can his greatest fear be anything other then the fulfillment of the prophecy of his own death as he himself had seen? Certainly it was when that lady made the prophecy. She didn't say, "Surrender to you what will be your greatest fear when the opportunity presents itself."

Sheridan could still be the man who is already dead. There is no reason London couldn't have taken two chances at redemption. "Redemption" is such an abstract, anyway, that it's all a guess. But no where does it say that he only has to do one of the five.

As for what the first two were before she made the prediction, that's simply impossible to say. One or both could just have easily been stuff that happened before the timeline of B5 and that is beyond the scope of the story. Remember that Londo is a middle-aged man and had plenty of time to not be redeemed, especially since he served in aggressive military campaigns.

The eye that cannot see is G'Kar's. Besides, IIRC, JMS blatantly saying so, what else can it be? It also mirrors nicely with G'Kar's behaviour toward Londo- blaming, but not really. Plus how it became such a dramatic fulcrum for the characters.

Londo did fail to save Sheridan from being killed. He set a plan in motion, but as Sheridan and Delenn were ushered out of the throne room, Londo realized that he had failed. The Keeper was nearly awake, and, as soon as it woke, it would countermand everything Londo had did in trying to save Sheridan.

It was then that Londo realized he had to give up his life -- succumb to his greatest fear: that he what he saw his death being actually coming to be. His doing so had a side effect of saving Sheridan's life, but it was the failure to save Sheridan's life in other means that spurred Londo on to opportunity number three.

I'm sorry, but I'm with those who feel the third prophecy is for Londo to surrender to the keeper. That very act of sacrifice on his part (and one almost no one knows about the entire time), eventually does redeem him in the eyes of those he knew. It was a sacrificial and selfless act (the only one he every really did) done in order to save his people. And it destroyed any chance he had at happiness or joy. He was watched and controlled for the remainder of his life, except for the last moments.

Need I remind you all that if you pay attention, it is clear that Londo asked G'Kar to be there to kill him. That was his plan. To drink until the Keeper slept, set Sherdan and Delenn free and have G'Kar standing by to kill him before it woke up. It was the only way to finally free his people from the puppet rule of the Drakh. I remind you, he knew who would be Emperor next..Morella told him.

Did you all miss all this?

Of course they didn't. But I agree -- Londo wanted G'Kar to kill him at that point. It all fit together -- he'd be out of the way, leaving the Drakh temporarily not in direct control. At the same point Delenn and Sheridan would be escaping, could call for help, and would be able to take advantage of the chaos to defeat the Drakh and support Vir, who Londo knew would be next in line. And besides, it all played out according to his vision, twenty years before, with a little ironic twist that Londo must have loved.

No, Londo's greatest fear had changed. Time was, yes, G'Kar killing him would have been his greatest fear... but by the time he died, it was a welcome death.

First of all :
- The "eye that cannot see" was G'Kar´s eye , that was cut off because it was not capable of seeing Carthagia's glory .
- The One that is already dead was Sheridan indeed .
- Londo's greatest fear was to die at G'Kar´s hands .
All of this was clarified by JMS lont ago .

I stand with KF and CE - Londo's greatest fear was to lose control and be a puppet, and the keeper was thus his greatest fear. Just saw the ep with JMS's commentary, and that was what he focussed on towards the end - that Londo was terrified of the keeper but wouldn't show it.

Further, Londo was always quite phlegmatic about being killed at G'Kar's hands. I don't see it as his greatest fear.

Now, I am breaking with JMS on this, of course, because he said on 3/10/1997:

Scott Baker <76072.1744@compuserve.com> asks:
> Didn't Londo have a prophecy about not killing the one who is > already dead? So, with the flash forward in WWEII we see him > sparing Sheridan, thereby avoiding his fate, right?


The goal was to *redeem* himself. Sparing Sheridan was part of that. Then he had to surrender himself to his greatest fear: his death at G'Kar's hands.

jms

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JMS is just wrong, that is all!

JMS has said on numerous occasions that the great thing about those prophecies is that they can be taken in many ways. It's not easy to pin them down.

JMS has said on numerous occasions that the great thing about those prophecies is that they can be taken in many ways. It's not easy to pin them down.

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As is the case with any prophecy...coincidence? Hmmmm.

If it comes true, it's a prophecy; if it doesn't, then it's just a metaphor