The Second Babylon 5 Film

the question of whether or not Delenn was changed to a 100% human by the Chrysalis transformation. A 140-year old human is uncommon to the point of impossibility, and according to TDoFS, it's even uncommon, in 2362, for a Minbari.

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Ah, but we don't know what affect on longevity the Chrysalis transformation itself has. Delenn might have emerged "younger" in Human terms than she went in in Minbari terms.

Also our contemporary experience suggests that it is advances in medicine, rather than improvements in the Human genotype, that leads to increases in longevity. We may belong to the first generation of Humans who routinely live past the age of 100. People living to 120, might be "rare to the point of impossiblity" in 2004, when many of us are in our 20s, 30s and 40s, , but in 2084 it may be common and some of us may be among the 120 year olds.

Finally Delenn has been living on Minbar. Minbari medicine is more advanced than Earth medicine, and the Minbari would have spared no expense or effort in keeping Delenn, one of the most-revered leaders in their history, alive for as long as possible. Certainly they did so for Valen (as JMS has told us.) He was already a "middle aged" Minbari when he arrived. (And had been exposed to the time rift a total of three times before he entered the Chrysalis.) Yet he lived for a further 100 years or so after the end of his Shadow War, because the Minbari of his time worked very hard to keep him around.

If 13th century Minbari medicine could do that, I'm pretty sure that 24th century Minbari medicine could keep even a genetically Human Delenn alive for about as long.

Regards,

Joe

Ladies and Gentlemen,

After reviewing posts on this board today I have come to the following conclusion:

KoshN has some SERIOUS competition for longest posts. Enter: colonyearth

He even is giving him a run for his money in back-to-back posts!

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We does whats we can

I do tend to explain things in lengthy detail..sorry...and I tend to post in large numbers because I'll read something, then respond, then read something that came after, then respond to that...and so on...you get the picture...right?

Well, on with the show!

I think that Delenn being 140 years old in this episode sheds some light on the subject that's been discussed over on the mod; the question of whether or not Delenn was changed to a 100% human by the Chrysalis transformation. A 140-year old human is uncommon to the point of impossibility

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What if rebuilding also renews?

Together with Minbari cells and metabolism... would go injuries suffered in Minbari form, and even Minbari diseases. After transforming, her cellular metabolical age might not have been 50 years... but a round single digit.

Moreover, a body assembled by transformation might have significant advantage over a naturally grown one. A natural body would have experienced childhood -- a period of increased vulnerability.

A body constructed by the Chrysalis device would have presumably formed with full defenses -- and no need to lower them.

Given that premise, living approximaltely 100 years after her transformation could be quite natural.

Do you mean to imply that when Delenn transformed, a whole new body was grown, *replacing* the old one?

In any case, I wonder if you're all overthinking Delenn's change and age. I concede, though, that I could be underthinking it.

As for more ideas to kick around, what about the scene in Sleeping in Light, in which Franklin isn't sure if Garibaldi would even want to come to the farewell party, and Garibaldi says "we've had our differences in the past, but he's a good man?" I wouldn't think events in the series would be the culprit, as John and Mike leave on very good terms in "Objects at Rest." The Teep War is a possibility, but there don't seem to be any issues between them in A Call to Arms.

If they make another telefilm, it could be the one jms mentioned that didn't happen, but would've delved into the origings of the Great Machine, and the Valen/Sinclair transformation.

He probably wouldn't do stuff so arc-tied until the franchise (yeah, I don't like the word either) firmly re-establishes itself. It'd be pretty schweet, though.

And colonyearth, if you're still around, what did you mean on the other thread about B5 tv movies being done to death? Are you just diappointed with their quality (which I certainly am not)? If so, how does that mean it's too tired to try again?

And thanks, Zathras

Please do not misinterpret me...if this project does turn out to be a new B5 TV movie, I will be happy. My observation is that you don't re-invigorate a franchise with one TV film...a mini-series could do it...or a feature film. Besides the series (both B5 and Crusade), all we've gotten is TV movies. I don't get the impression this is a repeat of old actions, but a new direction with the B5 universe. They've made 5 TV movies, and the showing for them has been good over all....but they're come and go items. It airs, it goes. A mini-series has multiple nights to build a bigger story, and a feature film has return audience and new audience appeal. I'm saying, they've already played the TV movie thing 5 times...I don't think that is what they're going to do this time out. I expect something bigger. It has to be. You can't test the waters of the audience with one TV movie. You need multiple nights or a big screen outting.

Again, don't misunderstand me...if it does turn out to be a TV movie...I'll be happy with that! I just don't get the feeling it is.

Keep dreaming!

As for more ideas to kick around, what about the scene in Sleeping in Light, in which Franklin isn't sure if Garibaldi would even want to come to the farewell party, and Garibaldi says "we've had our differences in the past, but he's a good man?"

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You have to remember that "Sleeping in Light" was shot at the end of S4 and in the expectation that there would be no fifth season, no "Objects at Rest" and no A Call to Arms. The assumption was that the story was going to go from "Rising Star" (and Delenn's musings about events over the next 20 years at the end) to "SiL".

Now in that scenario the Garibaldi and Sheridan relationship is never restored on-screen. The last time we see them together is when Sheridan is rescued and vaguely remembers wanting to kick Garibaldi's ass but doesn't quite remember why. After that Sheridan is off to join the fleet, Garibaldi is on Mars working with the resistance, and later rescuing Lise.

As far as the audience was concerned, the relationship between them would still be unclear, and JMS had no choice but to address this fact. Garibaldi's betrayal of Sheridan would have aired only a couple of weeks before we saw "SiL", and we would never have seen their reconciliation. So we would wonder how welcome Garibaldi would be in the Sheridan's home. And I think that is the issue here, not that Garibaldi is angry at Sheridan for some reason, but that he fears Sheridan is still angry at him - or that he feels somehow unworthy to be among Sheridan's friends at the end because of what he Bester made him do. Garibaldi carries an enormous amount of guilt about that, which is one of the things that explains his actions in S5.

Franklin knows this and thus his question, "Do I book one ticket or two" is a way of saying, "Do you feel up to coming or do you think it would be too painful for all concerned" Ditto Garibaldi's answer, which is couched as "we have had our troubles" but really means, "I did what I did, but he's still my friend." ("He's a good man" - meaning both "He's forgiven me and wouldn't want me to stay away" and "I'll still honor him and stand beside him no matter what, he deserves that.")

It was one of the things that JMS could have changed before "SiL" finally aired but chose not to, in part I think because there would be other times when the two disagreed. I can't imagine that Sheridan was any too thrilled with Garibaldi's deal with Lyta or their mutual contribution to the Telepath War, which however noble its aims ended up killing a lot of innocent people, forced the IA to take military action, probably cost the lives of a number of Rangers and other allies, not to mention the very personal loss of Lenier. Destroying Psi Corps and changing the status of teeps was probably a good thing, and Lyta and company probably never expected the war to spread beyond the teeps themselves the way it did.

Garibaldi's subsequent pursuit of Bester, his use of what amounts to a private army and navy to pursue his goals, and his use of his contacts (in EarthGov and the IA), his reputation and the they give him influence to get his own way, probably also brings the two men into conflict in the years between "Objects at Rest" and "SiL", although I'm sure they both got over it. So the line works on both levels, but it was necessary when "SiL" was assumed to be airing as the final episode in the 422 slot.

Regards,

Joe

In any case, I wonder if you're all overthinking Delenn's change...

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From a viewpoint of possible practicality... I personally would suspect a near-complete rebuild... to actually be the easiest option (of accomplishing a change like Delenn's).

After all, numerous creatures do transform (butterflies being a good example of relative adeptness in such business). They dissolve their old tissue, migrate or dissolve their old cells... and build themselves anew.

Those which change radically... generally rebuild themselves to great extent. Yet even their deepest changes... are childs play compared to crossing a border of species or genetic system (for which of Earth creatures, only viruses and bacteria have some pitifully limited ability).

With high probability... without extremely heavy modification to both... Human and Minbari metabolism in the same body would poison each other in a matter of minutes.

I would perceive throwing Minbari metabolism away as notably easier... than choosing extremely heavy modification... and designing some kind "compatibility versions" of both Human and Minbari metabolism -- versions of which neither is complete, but both are altered to avoid destroying the other (something their natural versions would do in most processes which keep them alive).

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There is, however... one more complication to the puzzle. One crucial difference exists between Delenn and a butterfly. An adult butterfly would not need its caterpillar-stage mind... but sentient creatures are defined by their mind.

Despite considering it probable that Delenn's transformation rebuilt everyhing conveniently rebuildable... I can only guess how she could continue using her old mind. Because rebuilding a brain without losing the mind... in my opinion... would not be realistic so easily and in such short term... even with above-average First One tools.

Colonyearth: I see what you mean now, and agree completely. Given the way jms is teasing us, this new project almost has to be something BIG, and given how long it's been since they've made any B5, I think he'd opt for something we haven't seen yet.

Joe: Is that speculation, or based on something jms said? If it's speculation, you could very well be right. I might even say you're probably right, but I'd wondered if anyone had other ideas.

sleepy_shadow: I meant that I think we're just supposed to accept that Delenn is part-human now, and there's little more to the specifics to understand. The butterfly/cocoon thing was just a visual image and metaphor to me.

But hey, this series is so well-thought out, who knows? Please never let me rain on your parade, if I'm ever a real party pooper, feel free to call me on it.

Joe: Is that speculation, or based on something jms said?

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I posted two fairly lengthy messages, covering at least three subjects. Is what speculation?

Guessing: All of the stuff about Delenn and how she might or might not age is speculation, as I think the post made fairly clear since I explained my reasoning as I went along, except for the comment from JMS about Valen's final years. I'd never considered the matter before but since the topic was raised here in reference to something I'd said on the moderated newsgroup I thought I should reply.

Garibaldi and Sheridan: The business about "SiL" following "Rising Star" and the lack of resolution to their story is based mostly just on the known facts about how S4 was structured. That logically explains why JMS would need that exchange between Franklin and Garibaldi, even though it seems odd when viewed after "Objects at Rest". I'm not sure that I've ever seen any comments from JMS on those particular lines, but he has said that he had the option to change the episode before it aired at the end of S5 and decided not to.

As for why Franklin asked the question, that's purely my interpretation, based on the idea of "Rising Star" and "SiL" airing back-to-back. In that context there is no reason for Franklin to think that Garibaldi would refuse to see Sheridan because Garibaldi's holding a grudge, and every reason to think that Garibaldi might be unsure that Sheridan would want him around, given their (to the audience, recent) history. (Which actually applies even given the existance of S5, since Garibaldi's drinking leads to the bombing of Centauri Prime which is another giant entry in the "debit" column of the Garibaldi-Sheridan relationship. )

Re: Garibaldi's activities in between. That's mostly based on facts taken from various sources, with some connecting of the dots and logical inferences thrown in.

We know from B5 and A Call to Arms that Garibaldi invested the money Lyta got from the Narn and kept two sets of books, siphoning off the majority of the funds to raise, train and equip an army of teeps for her to use against Psi Corps (their deal at the end of S5, 2262) and that a telepath "crisis" that kills many people takes place between then and the end of 2266. We know that Lyta's only target was Psi Corps from her own statements, and we know that the war spread well beyond the Corps from the Telepath Trilogy and from the unfilmed Crusade script "Value Judgments", which features the fugitive war criminal Alfred Bester. (Both sources indicate that the war ended when the IA intervened, and that at least tens of thousands of teeps died in "re-education camps", that the Corps killed many civilians, presumably including "mundanes" and that the Rogues continued to resort to terrorism, bombing Psi Corps facilities, including the one where the frozen Teeps left over from the Shadow War were being kept.)

From what we know of John Sheridan he can't be happy about Garibaldi's part in this, or Lyta's for that matter. Especially since it ultimately falls to him to clean up the mess they helped create. Let's see, Garibaldi is brainwashed by Psi Corps and betrays Sheridan, goes back to drinking because of his guilt about the betrayal and his inability to remove the Asmiov block and kill Bester, then he teams up with Lyta so that she can kill Bester and destroy the Psi Corps - which unleashes the sixth interstellar war the galaxy's seen in the past 20 years. You know, if I were Sheridan, I'd have to wonder if Garibaldi weren't more trouble than he was worth.

Regards,

Joe

Workingclasshero,

First of all let me say, the username is great! That to me is the best film hero, the working class kind, so I tend to like the "everyday guy put into extraordinary circumstances" type story. Cool choice!

Next, I'm glad you agree on the TV movie thing, and though I'm not sure Joe will admit it, I think he is thinking along the same lines -- come on Joe, give us your thoughts.

And, everyone mark your calenders here, I completely agree with Joe on everything in regards to the Sheridan/Garibaldi scenario! Every fact and hypothesis is right on the money in my view. We know Garibaldi sometimes ran off half-cocked and Sheridan was usually caught in the wake of it in some way or another...or left cleaning up the mess afterward. But deep down there was an abiding respect the two had for each other...and I would go so far as to say a genuine love for each other as old friends. You don't go through everything they went through and not form a bond that's beyond words.

And I agree that sometimes it seems that Garibaldi is more trouble than he's worth...but somehow he always manages (like Londo) to redeem himself and set things right. And he gets the job done, albeit not always in the manner expected or hoped for.

That's what I love about JMS' writing...there are not clear cut heros...they're "human" and they make mistakes, learn from them, are changed forever, correct what they've done wrong or pay a price for it. It's very true to the universe. Even our good guys fall sometimes. It's what makes us all love these characters so much I think...we can relate to them. We all pretty much want to be good people, but even the best intentions often times go awry. "The best laid schemes of mice and men oft go astray."

Such an understanding of human nature. It's why I respect JMS so much.

Wow, a what next for B5 thread, i've been searching for a good one of these for ages! I'm new here, btw, this is my second post.
JMS has created a whole universe for his and our imaginations to play in, and its great to see you all do this, and read your excellent ideas.
I always liked the idea of finding out more about the fisr shadow war, i always got a kick out of the idea of a load of Minbari accidently ending up on 13th century earth, after all, we know the Shadows went to Mars.

We know there are a lot of loose threads in the B5 universe. I personally like these, as they allow us to sit back and imagine like this. b5 has been with me for 10 years now, its always great to know its not going to go away just yet.

Hey Darth! Great to have you aboard! Check out the thread also on Latest from JMS. It's a long thread, but it's were we'll probably post the next anouncement from JMS on the new project.

It is an exciting time to be a B5 fan! The sun is rising on a new horizon!

If you need anything or have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Welcome,
CE