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Season Three: My Thoughts

I

Icarus

Member
Since I'm now able to get the DVDs I thought that I would start posting my thoughts on the seasons. I'll do it in a rather eratic order since i'm getting the sets that way :) but I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts and comments as well as my own.

SEASON THREE: POINT OF NO RETURN

Matters of Honor: Thought this was a good ep, and a nice solid season opener. Especially liked the introductions of Marcus and the White Star and I loved Sheridan's first encounter with the Shadow ship. 7/10

Convictions: A good episode I guess. Not one of my favourites by a long shot but it was all worth while just for the scenes in the elevator between Londo and G'Kar. In some ways I absolutely love those scenes but in some ways i wish more had been made of them. All in all 6/10.

A Day in the Strife: Good episode. Nice to see the foreshadowing of Franklin's later problems and Londo's asking the Narn about the deaths camps was good as well. 6/10

Passing Through Gethsemane: Loved this episode. I really thought this was good. Just loved Brad Dourif's performance as Brother Edward and the conclusion of that story was chilling too. Also liked Lyta's return, and from the Vorlon Homeworld! 8/10

Voices of Authority: Good episode with some good stuff to contribute to the arc, I thought. Loved Draal as always and the interactions between Marcus and Ivanova were brilliant ("Fine! I'll go and get a bucket!") 7.5/10

Dust to Dust: Quite a good episode. Loved this stuff between G'Kar and his father but I wish more had been made of G'Kar's attack on Londo. 7/10

Exogenesis: Didn't like this one that much. I did like the interaction between Marcus and Franklin and the Ivanova and Corwin story line but overall I didn't think much of the episode. The ending however was just laugh out loud fantastic I'd give the ending a 10/10 but the rest of the ep 5/10 :D

Messages From Earth: One of my favourites of the whole series. Loved the flashbacks of the Shadows on Mars and I loved the White Star going to Ganymede and that whole problem. Brilliant. Also Marcus' hierarchy of the station including his parents was fantastic. 9/10

Point of No Return: This episode itself I didn't have a huge love for but I felt it was a necessary transition between MFE and SD. Some parts of it were notably very good including General Hague's message (its all gone to hell) and Lady Marella's (sp?) prophecy (one of you will be emperor after the other is dead.) 6/10

Severed Dreams: I think we all know everything there is to be said about this ep. Fantastic. Just brilliant. Everything from Delenn's breaking of the grey council to B5's breaking away was excellently done. 9.5/10

Ceremonies of Light and Dark: A good episode all in all but just seems a little quite after the huge SD. Still good though. 6/10

Sic Transit Vir: Always love Vir and Ivanova's naked prediciment was hilarious. For some reason I just didn't like this episode though. I can't really determine why. Although a stand out moment has to be the revelation of Vir's little secret. 5/10

A Late Delivery From Avalon: This episode just didn't do it for me really. I liked the idea I suppose but it just isn't one of the best episodes. I think this episode and probably CoLaD and STV suffer from the enormity of a lot of the other episodes around them :)

Ship of Tears: Good episode, good arc points. Really liked Besters character in this. 7/10

Interludes and Examinations: Another of those that has be ranked as one of the best in the entire series. In fact this may be my favourite of the whole damn series. I just loved everything about it. 10/10

War Without End, Parts I and II: Fantastic! Most notably for Sinclair's return, Zathras, Babylon 4, the glimpses of the future (and the chilling "do not go to Z'Ha'dum) and the revelation of Sinclair's destiny to name but a few. 9.5/10

Walkabout: Another episode that I really, really liked. Although I wasn't overly impressed with the Franklin story line, Kosh's replacement was good and Sheridan and Lyta's attack on the Shadow ship was superby. 8/10

Grey 17 is Missing: This episode was saved by the Delenn/Marcus/Neroon story line. I didn't like the grey 17 story, although the idea of a "missing" level was interesting. 5/10.

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place: Good episode all-round really. Loved the Sheridan stuff in the ep which was a nice prelude to the last two episodes and also loved Refa's demise and the music that accompanied it!! 8/10

Shadow Dancing: Brilliant episode. I loved all the stuff in it from the huge Shadow battle to Franklin's stabbing. Also the callback to Sheridan's vision (in All Alone in the Night) and the return of his wife at the end were good. 8/10

Z'Ha'Dum: Well what I can say about this episode that hasn't already been said! "If you go to Z'ha'dum you will die!" And he goes. And its just "slap you in the face" fantastic really. G'Kar's ending speech was amazing, as was pretty much everything else about this ep. 9.5/10

OVERALL: Season Three definately has to be up there with as one of the best seasons in television history (up there with Season Four) and every episode had something good about it. Not every episode was always good but S3 had considerably less bad episodes that S2 or S1 did and a considerable amount more fantastic episodes. This really was a brilliant turning point for the series.

Well there's my thoughts :D feel free to add your own, disagree or agree with anything I've said :D

Icarus
 
My problem with Sic Transit Vir, although I like it, has always been that once Sheridan and Ivannova found out what a great thing Vir had done, after they had virtually destroyed his life by exposing it before they understood, they didn't even offer him an apology! :rolleyes:
 
I agree with almost all of your 1-to-10 point ratings on all these eps (you didn't rate A Late Delivery From Avalon, but I'm assuming from your comment that you'd give it something in the 5 to 7 range), with the following exceptions...

I loved Dust To Dust. With the focus on G'Kar and the philosophying of Kosh, I would give it a 9 or 10. I would even consider this a pivotal episode of the series because of how it changes G'Kar, my favorite character.

I would say I liked the the "center trilogy" of Messages, Point, and Dreams slightly more than you did. I would give Messages a 9 or 10, Point anywhere from 8 to 10, and Dreams definitely a full 10.

Same thing with Rock and Shadow Dancing. I would probably give both a full 10. In fact, in a lot of ways, And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place might just be my favorite episode. It was this episode that finally made me realize how much better Babylon 5 was compared to other science fiction, particulary Star Trek which I was unfortunately obsessed with up until that point. For carrying out the best continuing subplot, I would say the last 8 episodes of Season 3 and the first 6 episodes of Season 4 are Babylon 5 at its best (except for the whole Zarg thing in Grey 17).

It's funny, I have a hard time rating Z'Ha'Dum (as well as Into The Fire in season 4 for some of the same reasons). Part of me wants to give it a full 10 because I realize and appreciate how significant and monumental an episode it is. On the other hand, for a season finale, it's a dreadfully talky episode (even for Babylon 5, and despite the good writing). Some of the relationship talk between Sheridan and Delenn has always felt a little awkward to me. Justin explaining the Shadows' agenda was informative and surprising the very first time around, but seems to feel too self-explanatory after repeated viewing (unavoidable to a certain extent). So, part of me almost wants to give it an 8 or 9.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with your numbers.


The tough thing about rating the episodes is that some episodes that are "un-monumental" for more than half their duration then have a "bang" moment (and as we know from Franklin's commentary about life, life is all about the moments).

Ceremonies of Light and Dark is one of the best examples. The whole hostage situation is kind of lackluster, so I can see why you'd give it a 6. However, it's tough for me not to give it a higher rating because I always remember it as being the "uniform-change" episode. Star Trek will change uniforms at the drop of a hat, apparently because the wardrobe department gets bored and must have a decent budget. But, I like how Babylon 5 makes a big deal about switching uniforms and, more importantly, finds a reasonable, emotional, and dramatic way of doing so.

Passing Through Gethsemane is the same way. An 8 seems a reasonable number for the whole episode overall. But Brother Edward's death scene--that moment deserves a 10.

Convictions: same problem. You have to suffer through the mad bomber plot to get some of the best Londo/G'Kar moments of the whole series.
 
Granted this all personal opinion and preference .....
But from my POV it seems like you are systematically a bit too hard on the comparatively "quiet" episodes. To an extent I can understand that impulse. The thing is, though, that it is in quieter moments and episodes that we get to know the characters more personally. Without those "character" pieces the "monumental" stuff wouldn't hit home with us anywhere near as hard. You just can't get the same level of emotion if you don't know and care about the characters as much. And you just can't ever get to know and care about the charaters as fully if you only see them in the "big" crisis moments every episode. (And the Vir / Susan one-on-one scenes in STV are probably my favorite comedy scenes of the entire series.)


The Zarg *was* dreadful, though. (I must confess that the Garibaldi / Sheridan conversation about it at the end of the ep has always been a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, though.)
 
But from my POV it seems like you are systematically a bit too hard on the comparatively "quiet" episodes.
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I think you're probably right there. I wrote it all in a bit of a hurry and I think the problem was that it was the arc-heavy episodes that stayed in my mind the most. On second consideration I think I might well up Message From Earth and Severed Dreams up to a 10 but I'll have a look at the others some other time. :D

Icarus
 
Although I agree that "Z'ha'dum" is a bit talky, I still believe it is an excellent episode. Granted, I found both "Chrysalis" and "Fall of Night" to be slightly better and "Sleeping in Light", just as good; to me, "Z'ha'dum" is probably the most haunting of all season finale. Those final moments of Anna Sheridan screaming in terror, as the White Star penetrate the dome of Z'ha'dum and Sheridan jumping to his death still give me the chills.
 
Those final moments of Anna Sheridan screaming in terror, as the White Star penetrate the dome of Z'ha'dum and Sheridan jumping to his death still give me the chills.
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Anna is quite the "screamer". :devil:
 
The music in "Z'ha'dum" is what makes it excellent, IMO. The emotional impact of the music elevates this episode more than most, in part because it is largely dialogue and reaction shots.

SIL was even more reliant on its music in the "big impact" scenes, and that made it superior to even "Z'ha'dum."
 
That final speech of G'Kar's in Z'ha'dum though - it completely takes my breath away and was perhaps the moment when watching the series for the first time that just left me totally in love with the show and in awe at JMS' storytelling.
 
Ship of Tears: Good episode, good arc points. Really liked Besters character in this. 7/10
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Very interesting. I enjoyed reading someone else's synopsis of the season. But it also points out how very different we all are, and how perspective colors everything. I was completely flabbergasted that in your short commentary on "Ship of Tears," you didn't even mention what is, for many fans (including me), a favorite moment in the entire series: Delenn's revelation to G'Kar about the war council's depth of knowledge of the Shadows, and G'Kar's reaction. When that scene comes on, I don't care if the phone rings, if I'm late for an appointment, or if the President of the United States rings the doorbell: I am glued to the set until G'Kar's final words upon his exit, in response to Delenn wondering if he will be able to forgive her: "Perhaps...but not today."

Aisling
 
I was completely flabbergasted that in your short commentary on "Ship of Tears," you didn't even mention what is, for many fans (including me), a favorite moment in the entire series: Delenn's revelation to G'Kar about the war council's depth of knowledge of the Shadows, and G'Kar's reaction. When that scene comes on, I don't care if the phone rings, if I'm late for an appointment, or if the President of the United States rings the doorbell: I am glued to the set until G'Kar's final words upon his exit, in response to Delenn wondering if he will be able to forgive her: "Perhaps...but not today."

Aisling
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Quite agree - one of my absolute favorite moments in the series.

Another is a little-commented-on moment in "A Paragon of Animals" when an Enfili wakes up the Enfili leader and points out the small port in their shelter, where a new star has appeared. "At first I thought it was a new star, a symbol of luck. But they are NOT stars... look!"... and the sky is full of stars, each one a White Star arriving to destroy the raiders. I dunno why that moment was so moving for me, I only know that it was (and is).
 
Since I'm now able to get the DVDs I thought that I would start posting my thoughts on the seasons. I'll do it in a rather eratic order since i'm getting the sets that way :) but I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts and comments as well as my own.

SEASON THREE: POINT OF NO RETURN

Matters of Honor: Thought this was a good ep, and a nice solid season opener. Especially liked the introductions of Marcus and the White Star and I loved Sheridan's first encounter with the Shadow ship. 7/10

Convictions: A good episode I guess. Not one of my favourites by a long shot but it was all worth while just for the scenes in the elevator between Londo and G'Kar. In some ways I absolutely love those scenes but in some ways i wish more had been made of them. All in all 6/10.

A Day in the Strife: Good episode. Nice to see the foreshadowing of Franklin's later problems and Londo's asking the Narn about the deaths camps was good as well. 6/10

Passing Through Gethsemane: Loved this episode. I really thought this was good. Just loved Brad Dourif's performance as Brother Edward and the conclusion of that story was chilling too. Also liked Lyta's return, and from the Vorlon Homeworld! 8/10

Voices of Authority: Good episode with some good stuff to contribute to the arc, I thought. Loved Draal as always and the interactions between Marcus and Ivanova were brilliant ("Fine! I'll go and get a bucket!") 7.5/10

Dust to Dust: Quite a good episode. Loved this stuff between G'Kar and his father but I wish more had been made of G'Kar's attack on Londo. 7/10

Exogenesis: Didn't like this one that much. I did like the interaction between Marcus and Franklin and the Ivanova and Corwin story line but overall I didn't think much of the episode. The ending however was just laugh out loud fantastic I'd give the ending a 10/10 but the rest of the ep 5/10 :D

Messages From Earth: One of my favourites of the whole series. Loved the flashbacks of the Shadows on Mars and I loved the White Star going to Ganymede and that whole problem. Brilliant. Also Marcus' hierarchy of the station including his parents was fantastic. 9/10

Point of No Return: This episode itself I didn't have a huge love for but I felt it was a necessary transition between MFE and SD. Some parts of it were notably very good including General Hague's message (its all gone to hell) and Lady Marella's (sp?) prophecy (one of you will be emperor after the other is dead.) 6/10

Severed Dreams: I think we all know everything there is to be said about this ep. Fantastic. Just brilliant. Everything from Delenn's breaking of the grey council to B5's breaking away was excellently done. 9.5/10

Ceremonies of Light and Dark: A good episode all in all but just seems a little quite after the huge SD. Still good though. 6/10

Sic Transit Vir: Always love Vir and Ivanova's naked prediciment was hilarious. For some reason I just didn't like this episode though. I can't really determine why. Although a stand out moment has to be the revelation of Vir's little secret. 5/10

A Late Delivery From Avalon: This episode just didn't do it for me really. I liked the idea I suppose but it just isn't one of the best episodes. I think this episode and probably CoLaD and STV suffer from the enormity of a lot of the other episodes around them :)

Ship of Tears: Good episode, good arc points. Really liked Besters character in this. 7/10

Interludes and Examinations: Another of those that has be ranked as one of the best in the entire series. In fact this may be my favourite of the whole damn series. I just loved everything about it. 10/10

War Without End, Parts I and II: Fantastic! Most notably for Sinclair's return, Zathras, Babylon 4, the glimpses of the future (and the chilling "do not go to Z'Ha'dum) and the revelation of Sinclair's destiny to name but a few. 9.5/10

Walkabout: Another episode that I really, really liked. Although I wasn't overly impressed with the Franklin story line, Kosh's replacement was good and Sheridan and Lyta's attack on the Shadow ship was superby. 8/10

Grey 17 is Missing: This episode was saved by the Delenn/Marcus/Neroon story line. I didn't like the grey 17 story, although the idea of a "missing" level was interesting. 5/10.

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place: Good episode all-round really. Loved the Sheridan stuff in the ep which was a nice prelude to the last two episodes and also loved Refa's demise and the music that accompanied it!! 8/10

Shadow Dancing: Brilliant episode. I loved all the stuff in it from the huge Shadow battle to Franklin's stabbing. Also the callback to Sheridan's vision (in All Alone in the Night) and the return of his wife at the end were good. 8/10

Z'Ha'Dum: Well what I can say about this episode that hasn't already been said! "If you go to Z'ha'dum you will die!" And he goes. And its just "slap you in the face" fantastic really. G'Kar's ending speech was amazing, as was pretty much everything else about this ep. 9.5/10

OVERALL: Season Three definately has to be up there with as one of the best seasons in television history (up there with Season Four) and every episode had something good about it. Not every episode was always good but S3 had considerably less bad episodes that S2 or S1 did and a considerable amount more fantastic episodes. This really was a brilliant turning point for the series.

Well there's my thoughts :D feel free to add your own, disagree or agree with anything I've said :D

Icarus
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Well, what can I say: I mostly agree with you on your ranking of these eps.

But 'Grey 17' is only a 2/10 for me, 'cause -like you- I expected something much bigger behind that mystery. Plus, I would give a 10/10 to each of the episodes that you rated 9.5 or 9, but I'm not picky. :D

My favorite season is season 4. I also like parts of season 5 (especially the ones without Byron):devil:
 
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