The "Firewall" Thread (Spoilers)

The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Hoo! That was great!
I was expecting the a large disappointment from "Firewall" simply because every huge build up is always followed by a turkey, but man was I wrong. Guess I'm used to Trek.
This episode was definately heated. Although I know even less than I knew about Ezekial before, it was nice to see Markas' origin, as well as Thunder Mountain's. I'm also strangely refreshed to see Chen isn't your typical "Commander's bitch", also. Major Quantrell was great too. A fine character, a fine actor.

Added opinions?

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Yep, lots.

BTW there are going to be spoilers in my post here. Come to think of it, the topic itself says spoilers, so we are covered there as well. So don't bitch about reading spoilers in this thread, because if you did, you are an idiot.

Anyway, I was very suprised right from the start. I kind of thought the episode was going to deal with them finding this guy then talking to him. The actual direction of the episode was a suprise since they had him caught before the opening credits.

It was great seeing some insight to Marcus. There is definately a LOT more that this guy knows than he is letting on.

The stuff with his parents was moving and well done. He passed his message to Marcus telling him to create a better world, which is what this series is supposed to be about. Now we get an idea where he gets some of his idealism from. Unfortunately he has been too timid to act on it, but Jeremiah's arrival is putting things into motion.

Jeremiah. I am almost certain now at least his Dad is still alive, probably his mom too. The whole "I know more than you ever want to know" line from Quantrell to Jeremiah kind of rings that home to me. That and the fact that Quantrell knew his name, and thought he was dead. Why would they give a rats ass what happens to Jeremiah? SOMEONE has to care about who he is in order to be somewhat tracking his whereabouts and knowing him. He isnt just some random son of a random guy. His dad and mom were (or are) someone important. Also Ezekial was told "not to talk to him." There is a lot more to Jeremiah than we initially thought.

Speaking of Ezekial, I loved seeing him again, and really wonder what this guy is up to. I also liked seeing Alex [Zahara] in action again. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif Damn but he plays that character to be downright creepy and mysterious. His stare when he was sufficating Quantrell was excellent. Anyway, back to his character Ezekial, obviously he is "with" the VS crew, but is he for their cause or secretly against them but working within?

I agree with Morden on Chen, nice to see he isnt the commanders bitch type. He is obviously with Ezekial. Here is my theory on these two's motivations. They are "with" the VS group but I personally think they are secretly against them. VS sent the choppers to get their guy back. Chen talked to Ezekial or someone warning them that the choppers were en route. Ezekial came in and confronted Quantrell. Quantrell said "its about time you got here" thinking he was here to save him. But he killed him --- which was the only way to stop the locater device. This caused the choppers to turn back. So could Ezekial and Chen be a part of a group inside the VS bunch that secretly doesnt want them to succede? I think so. I think they killed Quantrell to save Thunder Mountain and buy them some more time.

There was some textbook JMS in this one as well, in addition to the "nothings the same anymore" line. What jumped out to me was Marcus talking to Jeremiah and company at the end. Saying he had been spending too much time thinking and not enough time acting. He said something along the lines that if they dont get going and create the world they want to live in, someone else will create it in their own image instead. This to me sounded JUST like Ivanova's line at the end of SiL "It taught us that we have to create the future, or others will do it for us."

There is more but thats all I can think of off the top of my head. I just got done watching it a bit ago. Perhaps I should watch it again and let some more of it sink in before I add any more opinions. Or, I can just see what some of you folks think. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I have two words for this episode. HOLY CRAP

This was a terrific episode and one of the best episodes of any series to push a story line forward leaps and bounds.

A few observations and notes

1-I had a feeling chen wasnt who he appreared to be when he gave that "Im with marcus" line when they brought Quantrell in. I hope chen is working with Ezekial to save thunder mountain, but you just dont know.

2-Ezekial's telling Jerimiah Im your brother, different mother, different fathers, but i am your brother. The only way thats possible is if they were medical experiments. Because at one point Ezekial said something about his two fathers which could be doctors.

3-We know the people at Vahalla sector are coming. But why are they taking these people for experiments?, where is it located and who else is there? We all can tell one of Jerimiah's parents is there because how else would Quantrell know of him, unless like i said he was a experiment and doctors knew of him and passed that info along

4-Damn the scene where marcus went into that garden and all of a sudden was pulling out guns was nuts. Its about time they start to act. I have a feeling that marcus has some big guns, but hes holding his cards close to home

5-The episode answered a ton of questions about thunder mountains past expecially seeing how the big death got in there and marcus's past with how his parents died. Very touching stuff

6-Marcus was right though last episode. There are still many satellites up there in space, since the VS people are using GPS

7-Ok here is my going out on a limb theory of the millenium

The girl behind the glass. Her name escapes me at the moment. She was brought in because she could carry the big death, but it didnt infect her. What if Jerimiah, Ezekial, and the girl behind the glass all were part of the same genetic experiment which led to there birth's. But with her something in that experiment went wrong and she was the sole reason for the big death. That would be a plot twist wouldnt it


Well like i said that last one is a major stretch of the imagination, but this series has really got me fired up. This is now one of my 3 favorties shows in a while and we are only 7 episodes in. I hope this show continues to kick butt, and may we all see Ezekial a lot more because alex is a great actor

capt

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

My thoughts lead me to believe Valhalla Sector consists of a military faction that runs the base and a civilian faction that is looking for scientific solutions to the big death. They both want to stop the return and spread of the big death.

The military faction probably wants to set up a military dictatorship as soon as they think the traces of the big death are gone. The civilian faction is working on a medical solution to the big death and doesn't want the military to take over after the solution is found. The civilian faction probably wants a resumption of a civilian government. Both factions in VS are probably keeping their final plans a secret from each other.

Zeke and Chin probably both work as agents for VS. Chin being their operative inside Thunder Mountain and Zeke a field agent. Their loyalties probably lie with the civilian faction. That is what Zeke may have meant when he said that he and Jeremiah were brothers. Brothers in the same cause (being a restoration of civil order), not brothers related by blood.

Just my guess. As usual I am probably way off base. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
It was great seeing some insight to Marcus. There is definately a LOT more that this guy knows than he is letting on. <hr></blockquote>

In "Firewall", I felt there was a LOT more to themselves than EVERY CHARACTER was letting on.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> Jeremiah. I am almost certain now at least his Dad is still alive, probably his mom too. The whole "I know more than you ever want to know" line from Quantrell to Jeremiah kind of rings that home to me. That and the fact that Quantrell knew his name, and thought he was dead. Why would they give a rats ass what happens to Jeremiah? SOMEONE has to care about who he is in order to be somewhat tracking his whereabouts and knowing him. He isnt just some random son of a random guy. His dad and mom were (or are) someone important. <hr></blockquote>

I think you're very right about this.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>There was some textbook JMS in this one as well, in addition to the "nothings the same anymore" line.<hr></blockquote>

The second I heard the line, I shouted, "Sinclair said that!"

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>What jumped out to me was Marcus talking to Jeremiah and company at the end. Saying he had been spending too much time thinking and not enough time acting. He said something along the lines that if they dont get going and create the world they want to live in, someone else will create it in their own image instead. This to me sounded JUST like Ivanova's line at the end of SiL "It taught us that we have to create the future, or others will do it for us." <hr></blockquote>

I was thinking on the broader term of "Earth's last, best hope for peace."

Nice comments, Recoil.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CaptDS9E:
<font color=yellow>2-Ezekial's telling Jerimiah Im your brother, different mother, different fathers, but i am your brother. The only way thats possible is if they were medical experiments. Because at one point Ezekial said something about his two fathers which could be doctors. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I believe that they are blood relatives, or that they are born of genetic experiments years BEFORE the Big Death came. I think he was speaking figuratively. Someone below commented that he meant they are brothers in that they believe in the same cause. Ezekial has sort of a cryptic Kosh thing going on, but in a much more human way of course. I'm not sure they are related, but I do think Ezekial thinks Jeremiah is special and will play a large part in whatever is to come.

*waits for Channe and Lyta to watch the episode and post here* /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I agree with everyone else, this episode kicked absolute ass. What I liked most:

#1 -- Major Quantrell telling Jeremiah and Marcus that they had 15 years to get their act together and they screwed it up by feeling sorry for themselves and letting the world go to hell and a handbasket. I think I actually yelled out "hell yeah" when he said that, because I agree completely.

#2 -- Marcus' father leaving him to go attend to his wife -- basically committing suicide. I had mixed feelings about this and I'm still not sure what to think. In the end, it was a moot point since that dumbass soilder just had to have his rings and watches, but I still have problems with it. Not only was he leaving his son alone, but he left him with that a-hole Major Quantrell. I'm not sure if I could have made that choice.

#3 -- Ezekiel and Jeremiah. I don't think its a coincidence that both these guys have biblical names. I'm not up on my Old Testament but I'd love it if anyone can tell me (briefly) the biblical stories of both Jeremiah and Ezekiel to see if there are any parallels. With that said, I'm of the opinion that Jeremiah's parents probably are alive and probably raised Ezekiel ... ergo, they're "brothers." I wouldn't doubt it if there was some genetic experimentation involved as well, we'll just have to wait and see.

#4 -- Marcus and Thunder Mountain finally exposing themselves, somewhat. I have to go with Jeremiah on this, those guys should have been doing this all along. Now it looks like they may pay for their shortsightedness.

#5 -- Valhalla Sector. Now I'm more interested than ever with this place and these guys. I'm going to take a different path here and follow the clues that I think that JMS has left for us to find... Just as their may be some parallels with the "real" Jeremiah and Ezekiel, there might be a parallel with the "real" Valhalla. If I know my Norse mythology well, Valhalla was where the heroic and honorable warriors went after their death. I think that Odin created Valhalla to spare these warriors from going to Hel. Maybe someone powerful (odin) saw early on what the Big Death (death) was and created a safe area (Valhalla) and stockpiled it for the best and the brightest to ride this thing out. I dunno, I geuss we'll see.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>#2 -- Marcus' father leaving him to go attend to his wife -- basically committing suicide. I had mixed feelings about this and I'm still not sure what to think. In the end, it was a moot point since that dumbass soilder just had to have his rings and watches, but I still have problems with it. Not only was he leaving his son alone, but he left him with that a-hole Major Quantrell. I'm not sure if I could have made that choice.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Its a difficult choice. I think I may have done the same thing that Marcus's father did. But different people will do different things in that position. I think it says a lot about what type of person his father was. He believed (and correctly so) that it was only a matter of time before the virus got inside and he was dead anyway, and that Marcus would live on. So he said his words to his son, and went to comfort his wife. While we all may not agree with this move, I think it was very well done.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>With that said, I'm of the opinion that Jeremiah's parents probably are alive and probably raised Ezekiel ... ergo, they're "brothers."</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I never thought of that possibility. You could be on to something there. He could have meant brothers figuratively as in a common cause, but its possible he meant that he was raised by his parents. Good and interesting idea.

I'm not sure if I buy into the genetic experimentation angle, that seems more of a Dark Angel kind of thing, but anything is possible I guess.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>#5 -- Valhalla Sector. Now I'm more interested than ever with this place and these guys. I'm going to take a different path here and follow the clues that I think that JMS has left for us to find... Just as their may be some parallels with the "real" Jeremiah and Ezekiel, there might be a parallel with the "real" Valhalla. If I know my Norse mythology well, Valhalla was where the heroic and honorable warriors went after their death. I think that Odin created Valhalla to spare these warriors from going to Hel. Maybe someone powerful (odin) saw early on what the Big Death (death) was and created a safe area (Valhalla) and stockpiled it for the best and the brightest to ride this thing out. I dunno, I geuss we'll see.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I agree with this assessment, but take it to another level. I am of the school of thought that these people at VS were fanatics who werent happy with the world as it was and as a result they created and released the virus themselves. Then they locked themselves up for 15 years and are planning on coming out to create the world they wanted. Something like what the villan in the James Bond movie Moonraker had planned. Save the "best" and "brightest" of humanity, the technology, history, then wipe everyone else out and start over. This is what I think the VS folks are all about, and Quantrell just stumbled upon them and due to his personality and beliefs, which we saw in Firewall, he fit and agreed with their gameplan. This is may take for now anyway.

Good points.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>While we all may not agree with this move, I think it was very well done.
<hr></blockquote>

That's the reason why I like it. I really don't think there is a right and a wrong choice here. Some people might think that he would be a coward for staying inside and letting his wife die alone and some people might think he was being selfish by choosing to die with his wife instead of looking after the welfare of his son and everyone else in the complex. But ultimately, he was proven right -- the big death came anyway, so he made the most of his time.

BTW, did anyone else think it was f*cked up that this stupid soilder would risk everything to sneak out for some rings and watches? I mean what the hell was he going to do, take it the pawn shop when this whole "big death" thing blew over? Even a moron should have realized that a few watches and rings wouldn't mean sh!t anymore. It was really the only weakness that I had with the episode, but its a minor point -- I mean the Big Death had to get inside Thunder Mountain somehow, it might as well have been because of basic human greed... poetic really.

BTW pt.2, I haven't had time yet to go through the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, but some of the verse headings sound very interesting. It probably is wishful thinking to find some sort of biblical connection here, but JMS has done it before.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>

BTW, did anyone else think it was f*cked up that this stupid soilder would risk everything to sneak out for some rings and watches? I mean what the hell was he going to do, take it the pawn shop when this whole "big death" thing blew over? Even a moron should have realized that a few watches and rings wouldn't mean sh!t anymore. It was really the only weakness that I had with the episode, but its a minor point -- I mean the Big Death had to get inside Thunder Mountain somehow, it might as well have been because of basic human greed... poetic really. .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Disagree with you about the rings and watches. Such items (rings, chains, gold, precious stones, etc, since there were no watches back then) have had trade value since the beginning.of recorded history.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Disagree with you about the rings and watches. Such items (rings, chains, gold, precious stones, etc, since there were no watches back then) have had trade value since the beginning.of recorded history. <hr></blockquote>

During apocalyptic events? I'd tend to think that survival would take dominance. But assuming that you're right, who was he going to trade with and what was he going to trade for? The only thing he could really trade for in Thunder Mountain would be for something like an extra MRE or something, in which case why didn't he simply go out for food? The guy was military, so he already had guns and other instruments of survival. I suppose he was intending to keep them until the Big Death was over or something, but even then he already knew that half the world was dead and more were dying. Although the situations are drastically different, I don't know of anyone during the whole Y2K scare that hoarded rings and watches. I knew dudes that hoarded nearly everything else, but not jewelry. I dunno, maybe you're right about such things having trade value in times like this, but I tend to think that the only thing that would have had any real value would be food -- which seems to be the most popular currency in the world of Jeremiah.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>During apocalyptic events? I'd tend to think that survival would take dominance. But assuming that you're right, who was he going to trade with and what was he going to trade for? The only thing he could really trade for in Thunder Mountain would be for something like an extra MRE or something, in which case why didn't he simply go out for food? The guy was military, so he already had guns and other instruments of survival. I suppose he was intending to keep them until the Big Death was over or something, but even then he already knew that half the world was dead and more were dying. Although the situations are drastically different, I don't know of anyone during the whole Y2K scare that hoarded rings and watches. I knew dudes that hoarded nearly everything else, but not jewelry. I dunno, maybe you're right about such things having trade value in times like this, but I tend to think that the only thing that would have had any real value would be food -- which seems to be the most popular currency in the world of Jeremiah.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Greed makes people do strange things, like stockpiling useless (at the time) items just in case they can trade for other things later. And, take chances to get the useless items. As I always say, "The more I know some people, the more I like Copperheads." <BFG>

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> Greed makes people do strange things, like stockpiling useless (at the time) items just in case they can trade for other things later. And, take chances to get the useless items. As I always say, "The more I know some people, the more I like Copperheads." <BFG> <hr></blockquote>

I guess what you call strange I call stupid. If he were smart, he would have went to the local Toys-R-Us and stockpiled on Pokemon and DragonBall Z, seeing as how the only people that he could have traded with would have been children.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>I guess what you call strange I call stupid. If he were smart, he would have went to the local Toys-R-Us and stockpiled on Pokemon and DragonBall Z, seeing as how the only people that he could have traded with would have been children.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

"Strange" -- "Stupid": six of one and half dozen of the other, depending on the context. As for computer toys, no electrical power, no working computer.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> As for computer toys, no electrical power, no working computer.
<hr></blockquote>

Who said anything about computer games? I'm talking about action figures here! G.I. Joe with kung-fu grip, rock 'em sock 'em robots, stuff like that... I ask you, what six-year-old boy wouldn't give up a couple of cans of tuna fish for that?

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Ok, site updates are complete and now I have a lot to comment on! I am going to have about a million replies so bear with me...

I think most people around here have been really good about the spoilers and in fact I hardly ever think about it. I just assume that there will be spoilers when a discussion about a particular episode begins but spoiler space is needed for when we are talking about clips or upcoming stuff that not everyone will have had a chance to see.

You are thinking along the same lines I was ... I didn't expect that they would catch Quantrell so quickly ... Markus' idealism and motivation to change the world ... Jeremiah's parents ...a superb job by Zahara ... etc.

My thoughts on Ezekiel and Chen are that they are working for TM (or another power) as moles within VS. Why would they be working to save TM otherwise? Still, I thought it was an interesting twist to see that Chen wasn't all that we thought he was. Here is another thought ... maybe the reason Chen is so anti-Jeremiah is because he is trying to protect him from knowing too much too soon? Either that or Chen is just trying to protect himself from being discovered?

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Why would they be working to save TM otherwise? <hr></blockquote>

I guess I saw it differently, because it didn't seem to me that they were trying to save TM at all, but rather doing everything they could to keep Quantrell from talking.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

While I like your theory on Ezekiel being a brother in the sense of some sort of medical experiementation but I took it to mean something a little more to it. My feeling was that perhaps Ezekiel and Jeremiah's fathers made it to VS (or at least knew of each other prior to the BigD?) and they were working against the faction that is only interested in power. This kind of leads to Kraig's point which I will deal with later.

As for why VS is experimenting on people ... my guess is that they were not prepared for the return of the BigD and had to resort to such measures? What if this whole thing was orchestrated by some big wigs and decided to wipe out the world and start over again so they could do things their way? What if they didn't expect that the BigD would return?

I was also glad that the confrontation with Quantrell forced Markus to deal with reality and make some progress rebuilding the world the way they want to. It's about time.

I never thought of Jeremiah, Markus and Meaghan (the girl behind the glass) in quite that way before. Interesting theory but not one I am quite sure I believe just yet. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

This is funny because this is exactly what my husband and I thought after talking about this episode. Just so you know that you are not totally off base because that was my feeling about Chen and Ezekiel as well. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I agree with the part about Dr. Alexander and leaving his son to be with his wife. There is no right or wrong answer. However, I didn't think it was selfish and thought it proved a very good point to his son, "no one should die alone without a human hand to hold". He would have rather had all the adults die and let the children carry on than to let men like Quantrell have their cold-hearted ways.

Yes, it was stupid for that man to sneak out for some watches but it just proves how stupid humans can be. He obviously didn't take the Big Death too seriously otherwise he would have never ventured out.

As for the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the bible, check out some quotes that Channe pulled for our newsletter a few weeks back:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jeremiah-news/message/9

She should have some good quotes from Ezekiel in the next newsletter (I hope!). /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif