JMS update on Lost Tales/Feature

Hopefully he had more in mind than a lot of impressive visual effects.

Is no one speaking up, saying they'd love to see what was intended for "Crusade"? I'll forever wonder how season 2 of that show would have worked out. Not to mention just what the heck the Apocolypse Box really was. Oh yea, and then there's this whole plague thing, too, that seems will be more complicated than just "we found the cure in the second-to-the-last episode".

I'm sure this won't happen, but I'd like to see it anyway. I haven't seen KoshN around here in a while, but I'm sure he would approve.

My #1 B5 request to see isn't directly B5 related at all: Crusade. With all of the TV shows made into comics that we see happening in the Whedon camp these days, I would LOVE for JMS to sanction and write (as many as he could) "Crusade Season 1 Part II", "Crusade Season 2" etc... in comic book form.

Joss Whedon has been doing "Buffy Season 8" the last several months. They release one comic a month (or every other month...I cant remember) and it will be a 22 comic season. Ironically, he does this for a show that I personally think went on a little long anyway, and thought Season 7 wrapped it up nicely. Sure there was more to tell, but like B5, I didn't think the other stuff HAD to be told. He also is doing this for Angel, writing "Season 6" for a show that WAS canceled a bit early IMO.

I would love to see Crusade get that treatment. Tell the Crusade story in comic book form. Frankly, if I knew really how to post this stuff on the moderated forum, I'd ask him if he ever had interest. I think it would be the only remaining way to tell the Crusade story, and it CAN be done well.

As for Telepath War...it would be neat to see on the bigscreen, but enough has happened before and after it that I don't necessairly NEED to see it. Crusade was a big untold story not directly related to B5...but in the B5 universe. That....I'd pay good money to see. Or read.

As a kid, who couldn't stop themselves from crying when Old Yeller finally had to be killed? We learned from that story that sometimes we have to be man enough, have enough integrity, to kill off something wonderful that we love.

A bit dramatic? Perhaps, but let's remember that it's been 10 years since Sleeping In Light. All of these abortive projects feel like when some band breaks up, then re-unites, only to release some mediocre album with two decent songs but no one cares and how can you blame them. Sure, the Lost Tales and Crusade has as many pleasant moments as Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge, but I could live without any of that stuff.

Even a Hollywood movie would look silly now. Everybody's old or dead and there just isn't the audience for that.

Here's what being a B5 fan means- we know that there was this kick-ass TV space show in the 90s, that was grand and literally and had this amazing story and these brilliant actors; that it was doing "arc" before arc was cool, and that it had way more going for it than even the biggest sci-fi franchise in the world, artistically. We are a cult audience. That is part of the fun.

Granted, Crusade could've been cool, but even that's primarily because it was a completely new show that just happened to reside in the same universe.

I know JMS doesn't read these boards, but just in case- thank you for having the balls to kill off your own creation once again, as you did with insisting upon ending B5 in season 5.

Recoil said:

I'm sure this won't happen, but I'd like to see it anyway. I haven't seen KoshN around here in a while, but I'm sure he would approve.

My #1 B5 request to see isn't directly B5 related at all: Crusade. With all of the TV shows made into comics that we see happening in the Whedon camp these days, I would LOVE for JMS to sanction and write (as many as he could) "Crusade Season 1 Part II", "Crusade Season 2" etc... in comic book form.

Joss Whedon has been doing "Buffy Season 8" the last several months. They release one comic a month (or every other month...I cant remember) and it will be a 22 comic season. Ironically, he does this for a show that I personally think went on a little long anyway, and thought Season 7 wrapped it up nicely. Sure there was more to tell, but like B5, I didn't think the other stuff HAD to be told. He also is doing this for Angel, writing "Season 6" for a show that WAS canceled a bit early IMO.

I would love to see Crusade get that treatment. Tell the Crusade story in comic book form. Frankly, if I knew really how to post this stuff on the moderated forum, I'd ask him if he ever had interest. I think it would be the only remaining way to tell the Crusade story, and it CAN be done well.

As for Telepath War...it would be neat to see on the bigscreen, but enough has happened before and after it that I don't necessairly NEED to see it. Crusade was a big untold story not directly related to B5...but in the B5 universe. That....I'd pay good money to see. Or read.

Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. This idea is made of pure WIN.


And yes, Ta JMS. Integrity is hard to come by these days, always nice to see it around.

If you can read the moderated group, I think you can post there. Your post will just have to be read and approved first, which can take some time.

I think the main thing about Crusade in any form is that WB owns the rights to it, don't they? Here's hoping Jan will correct/clarify. Well, one of the main things, if I'm remembering correctly.

The "other main thing" is that JMS is now finally being recognized in a big-scale, big-budget, big-director kind of way. When does he sleep? I'd think he simply doesn't have the time to continue writing comics at all, certainly not a series of them (limited or otherwise).

One thing you have going for you in a hope of Crusade in comic form is he might let someone else write it, if the rights are his. Well, another thing: he seems to love the medium. I suppose in many ways comic books are the closest connection an author can make with an audience in a regular kind of basis (monthly, quater-annually, annually, whatever). The only middle man would be the illustrator, right?

hypatia said:

If you can read the moderated group, I think you can post there. Your post will just have to be read and approved first, which can take some time.

Click to expand...

Hypatia's correct. One easy way to post is via Google Groups. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/topics You have to use a valid email address because the first time you post you'll get an email that you have to respond to agreeing to the terms of use. After that, you'll be on hand moderationfor the first 20 or so posts you make. Amy does most of the moderating these days and she generally does it a couple of times a day so the time lag's not nearly as bad as it's been sometimes.

I think the main thing about Crusade in any form is that WB owns the rights to it, don't they? Here's hoping Jan will correct/clarify. Well, one of the main things, if I'm remembering correctly.

Click to expand...

Correct. The only aspect of the B5 universe that isn't controlled by WB is the movie rights to B5.

The "other main thing" is that JMS is now finally being recognized in a big-scale, big-budget, big-director kind of way. When does he sleep? I'd think he simply doesn't have the time to continue writing comics at all, certainly not a series of them (limited or otherwise).

Click to expand...

He's writing some but not the numbers he used to. "Thor" is his only ongoing monthly title right now and "The Twelve" is a 12-issue miniseries that's coming out. He's slated to begin "The Brave and the Bold" for DC soon and he's going to have two titles coming from Image, too.

At one point ther was supposed to be a B5 comic from (iirc) Wildstorm. JMS mentioned at the last con that he hoped turn it in 'in a few months' but it's a project that's been on his 'to do' list for years now so I think we shouldn't hold our breaths.

In case he says anything else, I'll be at Comic-Con this week and will post here.

Jan

Thanks, Jan!

My feelings are not as mixed as others, I am mostly disappointed. I understand JMS’ point of view, and that his career is taking him in new directions. I certainly agree that B5 has always been under-appreciated in terms of viability, quality and its sheer impact on the way television is made. WB has always lacked commitment to the project, and has been gun-shy on supporting more B5, for reasons that have never been clear. B5’s budgets have been lower than its competitors, and the show actually thrived in those conditions. The drive and creativity mustered by JMS and company were astounding, and yielded outstanding results.

But to say that B5 was a five year story and should be retroactively left at that does not sound right to me. B5 was never a story in a vacuum, it was a segment of an enormous universe imagined by JMS, and the loose ends are big ones. If the Psi Corps and the Drakh had been defeated in 2262, then I would agree, the story would be done. But JMS carefully planted the seeds of future conflicts like the Telepath War and the Drakh War, with the implication being that their impact on the galaxy would be tremendous (as per his style). The lingering questions, issues and mysteries were placed in the B5 storylines to set up the next series or films or whatever. And frankly, they sound really cool and I was really looking forward to them. The Babylon 5 universe has so much more potential than any other franchise.

Crusade I sometimes consider separate from B5, its own story, but was the most worthy successor and something that ought to be revived in the fullness of time. More mysteries, more arc stories, a richly woven universe unfolding one episode at a time. These are the things that made B5 so compelling, and these are the things that have been missing in the other spin-offs.

A B5 movie? It could be a good thing, but a 2 hour film has never been a format in which B5 could tell intricate stories, with patient, deliberate development, the arc stories that made B5 unique and truly great. I loved In the Beginning, but it felt rushed, fitting a three year interstellar war into a 90 minute TV movie. For all its strengths, it did not have the depth and scope of the Shadow War storyline, which took years of episodes to set up and tell properly. And once you get a $40 or $50 million movie budget, then you get studio execs sending memos about the need to appeal to kids with cute robots, and demands to simplify scripts so newcomers can understand them (remember TNT’s request to not mention the Minbari or the Shadows in Crusade?). That doesn’t sound so good. B5 needs to be 100 proof, not watered down.

When The Lost Tales was announced, I thought ‘this idea is brilliant.’ Dealing with networks has consistently been the bane of Babylon, and bypassing them to go straight to DVD for cold cash from us hungry fans is a ground-breaking way of diving back into the B5 universe, and I was very happy to pay for it. The profits would justify more DVDs, and still allow for the creative freedom B5 needs to be itself. If one DVD isn’t big enough for a story like the Telepath War, then make it a six hour mini-series, cool, that’s a good thing. Then you have the time to put in quiet, reflective scenes like in B5, with Franklin and Garibaldi having a snack in Down-Below, talking about how they saw the future when they were kids. Flexibility, freedom and profitability, what could go wrong with this formula? No other format offers this. I just don’t think The Lost Tales concept should be abandoned before it’s given a chance to prove itself, because it’s the longer, patient arc stories that have been the best ones, the real core of B5.

And to give up on The Lost Tales before giving us the Garibaldi story? C’mon, Garibaldi’s just too cool to not have his own DVD. And Jerry Doyle loves B5 like we do.

Raw Shark

“Let them eat lead.”
- Marshal Law

To be honest, I too feel slightly cheated.

Of late, there have been more discussions from WB about doing more
DVDs, again at a low cost, or a cable thing, again with minimal
investment.

Click to expand...

The whole idea of TLT was to make a series of relatively inexpensive direct-to-DVD stories. And now that WB are talking about producing further installments jms is pulling the plug? This makes no sense to me.

The only thing I would be
interested in doing regarding Babylon 5 from this point on is a full-
featured, big-budget feature film.

It's that or nothing.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day, for me, it's not just a matter of getting more
B5. It's a matter of getting more *good* B5 that respects what came
before it and doesn't have to compromise visually or in terms of
action.

Click to expand...

So, now jms is settling for nothing less than a feature film, on the grounds of quality. But a big budget does not guarantee a quality production. And for me, the problem with the first TLT was not the visuals or action.......it was the poor script.

Bester said:

And for me, the problem with the first TLT was not the visuals or action.......it was the poor script.

Click to expand...

Same here, and I am also one of the people that doesn't really see where JMS is coming from on this issue. It's good to go into a project hoping that it will succeed and you will be given a bigger budge. However the WB flat out stated that they were only interested in making inexpensive direct-to-DVD releases and that is still their intention. For some reason JMS has decided that despite knowing this was the case from the beginning that he is going to pull the plug because they refuse to pony up more money. It all strikes me as a bit odd, and somewhat idiotic on his part. (Not the actual pulling of the plug, but his reasoning behind it)

Jan said:

Correct. The only aspect of the B5 universe that isn't controlled by WB is the movie rights to B5.

Click to expand...

Jan. So before I go asking what might be a stupid question...how does this matter? Does Joss Whedon himself own the rights to Buffy and Angel? Or does Fox? Why would this hold things up...other than getting WB to approve such a project?

And to Hyp/Jan's points about his writing comics. Yes...his schedule has gotten busier and he has been bumped up on the list of writers. But...I really have to draw parallels to Joss Whedon here too. Joss is a very big (well known) name in the industry as well (JMS is certainly arriving there himself now). Joss also has a love for comis (like JMS). Joss is also a busy man (like JMS). However he has two projects going on right now. One he is mostly involved in, the other partly involved in (in Buffy and Angel comics). He DOES have other people write a good chunk of the comics as I understand it, but he is involved in the process. Seems like if there was a will, JMS could pull this off too, assuming no issues with rights and such.

Key point being the "will" part. Would he want to return to Crusade in comic form? Would there be a fan base for it? I'd like to think the answer is YES.

It just seems like his situation and Joss's are pretty similar, and I love that Joss is continuing both of his shows in comic form (hell even Firefly just got another mini-series in comic). Since JMS does like the medium as well, I'd love to see Crusade told there.

I'm more than willing to post a "What if" on the moderated group...as long as there aren't any issues with rights to the material that totally prevent it...but, maybe Jan could get the chance to pose that question/example at comic-con.

Recoil said:

Jan. So before I go asking what might be a stupid question...how does this matter? Does Joss Whedon himself own the rights to Buffy and Angel? Or does Fox? Why would this hold things up...other than getting WB to approve such a project?

Click to expand...

There would be a licensing fee involved, for one. I'd heard, but don't know if it's accurate, that the licensing fee would be a minimum of $10,000.

As for telling the Crusade story in comics, all I can tell you is that JMS was asked about telling the Crusade story in novel form back at the Heroes con in 2006 and his response was that Crusade had been concieved as a story for television.

One other issue to remember when it comes to comics is that it would pretty much have to be done by DC and JMS has had issues with their editorial policy regarding B5 comics in the past.

Jan

I hadn't heard anything about JMS having issues (ha ha) with DC over B5 comics. What have you heard, Jan? The comics themselves were a real mixed bag, sometimes quite good and sometimes just seeming out to lunch. I had always wondered why they never started them up again, though, so what do you know?

JMS' comics writing has improved dramatically in recent years. Supreme Power was so much more polished than Rising Stars, and... well, that's really all I'm basing my statement on. They're pretty similar, but one's much better. Maybe it's working with Gary Frank as artist that makes the difference. But I've been saying for some time that Crusade would make a great comic, because deep down I KNOW B5-related comics could be awesome.

Okay, here it is:

1. License the Crusade comics rights over to Dark Horse, which specializes in movie and tv spinoff comics.

2. Negotiate a deal with Dark Horse that includes making sure the issues can be as long as needed per given issue, total creative control, and schedule flexibility.

3. Find writers and artists who are fans of the series.

4. Don't do stupid photo covers of the real cast members for the issues, those are just lame.

5. JMS provides script outlines, writes some issues, and works with writers on the rest to ensure continuity. Unless he just wants to write the whole thing himself...

6. Call it 'Crusade.' Man, that's an easy one.

7. Let 'er rip! I want to know what's in that damn Apocalypse Box!

There, I said it. Again.

Raw Shark

"Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun!"
Monty Burns

IDW would also be a good, choice, they do Dr Who, Angel and Transformers ...

To all of those who worry about a movie, JMS has stated that he would want 100% creative control, which Warner movie execs were not happy with, and thats why we've not had one yet. Warner TV execs are fine with this, but they can only give him small budgets, which does not give him much to work with.

Small budget can mean $2 million or $5 million. I suspect that JMS found it too difficult to make a DVD for $2 million.

Raw Shark said:

I hadn't heard anything about JMS having issues (ha ha) with DC over B5 comics. What have you heard, Jan? The comics themselves were a real mixed bag, sometimes quite good and sometimes just seeming out to lunch. I had always wondered why they never started them up again, though, so what do you know?

Click to expand...

"Issues" <groan>

JMS said:

I will not, however, be writing directly for the comic anymore.
DC has a policy that they will not allow writers final say on their
books. Only the editors. On all books written by other writers, as
per their contract with DC, I via WB, have final approval. However, if
I function as a writer, then I must give up that right and allow myself
to be rewritten by the editor. It's a jurisdictional matter. Suffice
to say I was appalled by some of the rewriting done on what I'd turned
in on the four issue arc.

Consequently, I will not be writing that arc, or any other books
for the DC title. I will be happy to provide information to keep the
story current with the series, farm out premises so it stays canon, and
work closely with the writers in my approval status. That way I can
make sure the work is to our standards; if I write for the book, I
cannot do so, because the editor insists on rewriting me to maintain
DC's jurisdictional structure.

Click to expand...

At a con (possibly Heroes again), JMS described DC as being "handcuff-y" and that the editor they had had come over from kid's titles and had some policy on a low maximum (12?)number of words allowed in a word balloon or caption.

As for other publishers publishing B5 comics, I'd heard (from Matthew Sprange at Mongoose which is suspect at best) that at one point Mongoose was going to publish B5 comics but that WB had to withdraw that because DC still had first dibs (even though they hadn't published a B5 comic for years). Like I said, though, the source may be very flawed.

ETA: I notice that JMS's follow-up isn't over here:

1) For those who wondered why $2M for a 2 hour movie was low when we
used to do B5 for $850K/hour...first, that was ten years ago, and
costs across the board have gone way up; second, we could amortize
costs across a season of 22 episodes, which you can't do for a stand-
alone. Meaning, you want a given set that costs $100,000 to build.
You spread that cost across 22 episodes and the hit is small. You can
also spread other hard costs across that period. In a stand-alone you
have to pay for everything out of that one budget. And on top of
that, scale for 2-hour salaries for crew and cast are higher per-hour
than a one-hour production.

Click to expand...

Jan

Cell said:

Same here, and I am also one of the people that doesn't really see where JMS is coming from on this issue. It's good to go into a project hoping that it will succeed and you will be given a bigger budge. However the WB flat out stated that they were only interested in making inexpensive direct-to-DVD releases and that is still their intention. For some reason JMS has decided that despite knowing this was the case from the beginning that he is going to pull the plug because they refuse to pony up more money. It all strikes me as a bit odd, and somewhat idiotic on his part. (Not the actual pulling of the plug, but his reasoning behind it)

Click to expand...

I don't think it is idiotic at all ... it simply reflects how JMS' work has changed since the original agreement for TLT was made.

On top of that, I agree that he clearly went into it knowing that they were only interested in inexpensive direct to DVD releases and that that hasn't changed. However, JMS now understands exactly what can be produced at the kind of "inexpensive" they are talking about, particularly on a disc by disc basis. If, as he says (I think from Jans transcript of his panel at the con), the writing was hamstrung by how much money was available to make the thing, then that is a big issue.

Personally, I enjoyed TLT disc 1 ... not the best of B5 by any stretch but very watchable, and obvioiusly done on the cheap. I think there is a big difference between inexpensive and "done on the cheap" frankly.

So JMS has a choice ... does he devote some of his time and energies to try and put together more "on the cheap" DVDs for Warners, or does he concentrate that time and energy on developing his burgeoning movie career?

GaribaldisHair said:

So JMS has a choice ... does he devote some of his time and energies to try and put together more "on the cheap" DVDs for Warners, or does he concentrate that time and energy on developing his burgeoning movie career?

Click to expand...

Duh... now, let me see...

GaribaldisHair said:

So JMS has a choice ... does he devote some of his time and energies to try and put together more "on the cheap" DVDs for Warners, or does he concentrate that time and energy on developing his burgeoning movie career?

Click to expand...

Why can't he do both? He has said all along that he would write and direct the first installment of TLT, then hand the reigns over the someone else for future installments. Therefore, his involvement in TLT would be significantly reduced.

For those interested, the Lost Tales question came up a Comic-Con from a fan who wasn't aware of JMS's post. JMS reviewed the history of how B5 has always had to constantly prove to WB that there was a market for the show, the VHS tapes, the DVDs and most recently the Lost Tales. He went on to say that they came to him again (seemingly this was after the WGA strike but he didn't mention exactly when) and said:

You want to do another one for two, maybe five million and I say, "You know what? No." The fans of Babylon 5 have stood with the show for so long and when you have me write stuff with financial handcuffs on, it leads you to having creative handcuffs on. You can't have extras, you can't have fights, you can't have stunts, you can't have a lot of stuff. [I thought?] You know what? I've got a lot of movies going giving me a certain credibility there...I'm gonna roll the dice. I told Warner's: "Big budget feature film or nothing." I own the movie rights...[applause]

Click to expand...

A little bit was drowned out by applause but it was something about the Lost Tales still being lost.

I didn't get the impression that the 5 million figure was anything resembling an offer, btw, just a range within possibility.

Jan