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View Poll Results: A Race Through Dark Places
A -- Excellent 9 18.37%
B -- Good 19 38.78%
C -- Average 19 38.78%
D -- Poor 1 2.04%
F -- Failure 1 2.04%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 13th 18, 11:27   #101
Jan
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Re: EpDis: GROPOS

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Originally Posted by Looney View Post
And personally I think JMS blew a HUGE opportunity for General Franklin to be Doctor Franklin's Mommy issue. But seriously I think it was a missed opportunity not having that character be a woman. It would have been a good way to get another mom involved in one of the main character's back stories.
It was Larry DiTillio's episode, though. As for the why of it, here's a passage from DiTillio's intro to the episode from the script books:

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There are two sensibilities in “Gropos,” my own and that of Richard Biggs
who played Dr. Stephen Franklin. It’s in fact as much Rick’s story as it is mine. [...] At one of these lunches the talk turned to family backgrounds and I learned Rick’s father was a full bird colonel in Vietnam. He talked about his family watching war news on television and spoke of the “terrible waiting” whenever it mentioned a battle his father was engaged in.
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Old September 13th 18, 15:07   #102
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Re: EpDis: GROPOS

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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
[

It was Larry DiTillio's episode, though. As for the why of it, here's a passage from DiTillio's intro to the episode from the script books:

Quote:
There are two sensibilities in “Gropos,” my own and that of Richard Biggs
who played Dr. Stephen Franklin. It’s in fact as much Rick’s story as it is mine. [...] At one of these lunches the talk turned to family backgrounds and I learned Rick’s father was a full bird colonel in Vietnam. He talked about his family watching war news on television and spoke of the “terrible waiting” whenever it mentioned a battle his father was engaged in.
Ah. I knew it was DiTillio's episode, but I did not know Biggs was that involved. And Biggs' angle aside, JMS could / should have told DiTillio to make General Franklin a woman.
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Old September 13th 18, 17:45   #103
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Re: EpDis: GROPOS

You all make some excellent points, I'm so glad I came back

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Ah. I knew it was DiTillio's episode, but I did not know Biggs was that involved. And Biggs' angle aside, JMS could / should have told DiTillio to make General Franklin a woman.
That WOULD have been very interesting. I wouldn't say that "dad is a hardass military officer" is a completely overdone story, but it's definitely not rare. Having it be a hardass military mom would have put a bit of a different spin on it. And, as you say, would have given us a "mommy issue" story rather than another dad one. But, I don't mind the story being the way it is.

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Never been in the military but methinks that when the opportunity for R&R arrises, you don't deny that to your troops. Especially just before they're going into combat. So the choice was to either move them onto B5 or to keep shuttles going back and forth to all the troop-ships constantly after allowing a very few hours of R&R to each GROPO. I think General Franklin made the right choice.
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Something to consider is that the troops sitting on the transports would be sitting in zero gravity. So seeing as they are GROUND POUNDERS prolonged zero gravity exposure might be a problem when they are expected to go into a gravity situation fighting. I've often wished they'd done a little more exposition on how people got along on zero gravity ship assignments for long periods of time.
These are both good points, which I totally failed to consider I just didn't think about the fact that big ships like that can't just dock on the station and allow the crew to come and go as they please. There would indeed have to be a lot of shuttling back and forth, which I suppose would be more difficult than just trying to bunk them all on a station where there isn't really room for them.

I definitely never considered the fact that these are zero gravity ships!

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The show was pretty progressive when it came to feminism in general. The relationship between Talia and Ivanova is about as far as they could go in those days. They even mention a female pope at one point. What's nice is that they show Dodger as liking casual sex and it doesn't have any repercussions. It doesn't get her in trouble in any way. That's actually very progressive.
I agree! Babylon 5 definitely showed human (and Minbari) women in equal numbers to men in all jobs/functions. That's not a small thing! Agree about Dodger also. That was quite well done.

Re: Talia and Ivanova's relationship. Just recently, while scrolling through one of my social media feeds, I came upon this list of female characters on current TV shows who are gay or bisexual, and there were SO MANY. They were mostly characters I'd never heard of on shows I don't watch (I don't have live TV, and I don't watch that many current/recent shows [though I LOVE The Expanse, but I'll take that to the off-topic forums ]) but I was so struck by the difference between this TV landscape and the TV landscapes of my teen years. Back then, you had that one episode of Xena Warrior Princess where Xena and Gabrielle kissed, because ... somebody's spirit was inhabiting somebody else's body (Se. 2, ep. 13 "The Quest"). I've never actually seen this episode, but I knew SO many people who couldn't stop talking about it for years after, because it was all they had (I am vaguely aware they later kissed again in other episodes). There was also that (rather heartbreaking) episode of DS9 where Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn make out because their Trill symbionts are ex spouses (Se. 4, ep. 6 "Rejoined"). But before ALL of that, there was Susan Ivanova and Talia Winters. As we all know, they never kiss on-screen. But, unlike the other examples I just listed, they had an actual relationship that had been building since the first episode. There was no trickery with possessed bodies or symbionts so as to allow characters to kiss on screen without having to come out and officially declare them non-straight. These were honest-to-god canonically bisexual characters. It was definitely progressive!
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Old September 13th 18, 17:59   #104
Jan
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Re: EpDis: GROPOS

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Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears View Post
As we all know, they never kiss on-screen. But, unlike the other examples I just listed, they had an actual relationship that had been building since the first episode. There was no trickery with possessed bodies or symbionts so as to allow characters to kiss on screen without having to come out and officially declare them non-straight. These were honest-to-god canonically bisexual characters. It was definitely progressive!
A lot of people miss the fact that when Talia wakes up and Susan's not there, she's reaching for Susan who'd been sleeping on the other side of the bed.

One other point I *love* about that episode is the shot of the eclipse photo on the wall as the camera tilts down to feature Talia with an eclipsed personality. Now, *that's* attention to detail!!
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