The Most Annoying Guest Character In B5?

Except Lyta was going to wind up on Byron's side (if not in his bed) no matter what happened with Ivanova, so we can't lay that at CC's feet.

Here's my assessment. Who's in charge on Babylon 5?

Garibaldi -- hates telepaths.
Ivanova -- has had a lifetime of suspicion because of her secret.
Delenn -- doesn't mind telepaths much, but is also used to the Minbari model, where they serve without questioning.
Lochley -- not as up on the Bad Stuff that Psi Corps has been doing, so is less prone to embracing one-time rogues.
Sheridan -- is not hostile, but is a little wary of Lyta, especially since he knows better than anyone how much the Vorlons can mess with you.
Zack -- openly supportive of Lyta but... well, he's Zack.

Add in the natural human dislike of telepaths, and loyal Lyta keeps getting shafted. It wasn't out of character, it was perfectly well established in all of our heroes that when it comes to telepaths, they aren't at their best.

KoshFan said:

Garibaldi -- hates telepaths.

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I would have said "distrusts telepaths", and is quick to judge them negatively given *any* reason to.

He certainly didn't "hate" Talia.

KoshFan said:

Except Lyta was going to wind up on Byron's side (if not in his bed) no matter what happened with Ivanova, so we can't lay that at CC's feet.

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So, I guess you've seen the original plan, somewhere?

KoshFan said:

Here's my assessment. Who's in charge on Babylon 5?

Garibaldi -- hates telepaths.

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Garibaldi doesn't hate Lyta. His distrust of the Corps., and telepaths in general, doesn't apply to Lyta.

KoshFan said:

Ivanova -- has had a lifetime of suspicion because of her secret.

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Inanova's high degree of suspicion (distrust and hatred ) of the Corps doesn't apply to Lyta. She's one of them.

KoshFan said:

Delenn -- doesn't mind telepaths much, but is also used to the Minbari model, where they serve without questioning.

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She's always helped Lyta, and should have moderated Sheridan.

KoshFan said:

Lochley -- not as up on the Bad Stuff that Psi Corps has been doing, so is less prone to embracing one-time rogues.

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Plus she's stiff as a board, formal, more letter of the law, even more than Sinclair ever was. It was a disadvantage of her being brand new on the station. We were used to a more experienced commander, who was at ease on the station, and she didn't have time to get to that comfortable place when the telepath situation came up. If it had been Ivanova in charge of B5 in 2262, we wouldn't have had that problem, and that IS fallout of the CC situation.

KoshFan said:

Sheridan -- is not hostile, but is a little wary of Lyta, especially since he knows better than anyone how much the Vorlons can mess with you.

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Oh, I'd say he's hostile, or at the very least, utterly thoughtless when it comes to Lyta. When he needs her, he thinks of her. When he doesn't, he tosses her aside. In this particular instance, he was a jerk, a user.

KoshFan said:

Zack -- openly supportive of Lyta but... well, he's Zack.

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Feckless. He also could have moderated Sheridan a bit ("Permission to speak freely,sir."), if he (Zack) wasn't so deferential and feckless.

KoshFan said:

Add in the natural human dislike of telepaths, and loyal Lyta keeps getting shafted. It wasn't out of character, it was perfectly well established in all of our heroes that when it comes to telepaths, they aren't at their best.

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They conveniently forget all she's done for them, risked for them. It's unconscionable.

KoshN said:

KoshFan said:

Except Lyta was going to wind up on Byron's side (if not in his bed) no matter what happened with Ivanova, so we can't lay that at CC's feet.

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So, I guess you've seen the original plan, somewhere?

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jms says:

>> Anyone looking at the S1 bible
>> right now sees stuff that was laid out for the later seasons,
>> and it was pretty much all done...
>> right down to telling writers
>> not to get Lyta into a relationship
>> because she would eventually become starstruck by Byron,
>> and I didn't want anything else to get in the way of that.
>
>I thought Byron was originally intended for Ivanova, up until Claudia
>decided to leave the show...???
>

Correct. Note the use of the word *starstruck*, not *involved with*. The
theory was that Byron would have gotten involved with Ivanova, who -- feeling
she'd messed up by being too closed off to a somewhat similar person decides to
take a chance with someone, only to have it blow up in her face -- while Lyta
suffered from unrequited love (a constant B5 theme), which would no less fuel
her desire to avenge him.


jms

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Maybe it was the actor, or maybe it was the way the character was written, but I find it utterly distasteful that either Ivanova or Lyta could be involved with or starstruck by <Yuck!> Byron .

Wow. It's a good thing that CC did leave the show since her character would've been ruined complitely. Byron and Ivanova? *giggles*

I would've loved to see her "revert" into the cynical and colder Ivanova, dedicated on searching a cure for Marcus, and perhaps even spin a series of her own as she would've taken a job as a starship captain as she has few times mentioned about liking the idea. I think it would've fit to have Ivanova behave coldly and harshly towards Lyta when Sheridan would've been busy with other things. Maybe she could've pushed Lyta about a cure or something like that and Sheridan would've only distanced himself from Ivanova when he would've tried to mediate the matter.

I guess we all know where we stand on this telepath matter, but I think that even if Lyta might've felt the idea of belonging into this bunch somewhat tempting, I've always thought that she seems too smart a person to dive into this... cult. I have to admit that I actually expected her to turn around and say "look at yourselves", and walk away. Their routine is nuts and simply cannot end but in disaster - I mean, hell, with Byron locked in prison his gang devolves into blooddrinking primitives and go on rampage.

I think Zack should've puckered "because I like you", when Lyta asked if he could say anything to change her mind when she was so set on following Byron. Maybe it wouldt've made her to stick around but it could've been used as some sort of nudge later on. I always think it was kind of sad how Zack didn't seem to have a lot going on because I liked the character a lot.

KoshN said:

But Lyta wasn't really under him. She wasn't in his chain of command, and he hadn't cemented any kind of informal chain of command with her, "deputised" her, or anything like that. Additionally, after the Vorlons were gone, she was left to fend for herself, and was persona non grata to all sides, Psi Corps, Army of Light and the business community. If I'd have been Sheridan, after all she'd done for me and my cause, I'd damned well have taken care of her, helped her out and made her feel INCLUDED, instead of EXCLUDED and tossed aside. If he'd done that, she'd almost certainly have INCLUDED him. She could have told him about not letting Bester get anywhere near Z'ha'dum, and her plans, and she could have put in a block to prevent Bester from Bester seeing it in Sheridan's mind. C'mon, you know she could have put in a block that Bester wouldn't either see or have any chance of getting through. This is Lyta, the Vorlon enhanced telepath/telekinetic and she's far, far beyond Bester's P12 rating.

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Sheridan did exclude Lyta. By that time it was standard practice to have a telepath present in government and business negotiations. As station telepath Lyta should have been involved in negotiating most supply contracts for Babylon 5. Sinclair even used Talia in diplomatic negotiations.

KoshN said:

But Lyta wasn't really under him. She wasn't in his chain of command, and he hadn't cemented any kind of informal chain of command with her, "deputised" her, or anything like that. Additionally, after the Vorlons were gone, she was left to fend for herself, and was persona non grata to all sides, Psi Corps, Army of Light and the business community. If I'd have been Sheridan, after all she'd done for me and my cause, I'd damned well have taken care of her, helped her out and made her feel INCLUDED, instead of EXCLUDED and tossed aside. If he'd done that, she'd almost certainly have INCLUDED him. She could have told him about not letting Bester get anywhere near Z'ha'dum, and her plans, and she could have put in a block to prevent Bester from Bester seeing it in Sheridan's mind. C'mon, you know she could have put in a block that Bester wouldn't either see or have any chance of getting through. This is Lyta, the Vorlon enhanced telepath/telekinetic and she's far, far beyond Bester's P12 rating.

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I agree with KoshN here. I remember the first time I saw the handling of Lyta during the first run of the show. Her treatment by Sheridan was bewildering and unbelievable. Totally out of character for him. I am sure that it was designed to contribute to the necessary "she goes over to Byron's side" plot points, but it was simply too weird to believe. "I have a super-telepath who has helped me succeed in everything I have tried to accomplish. I guess I don't need her anymore so I'll ignore her and not care that she's broke and unemployable. And of course I don't have any use of a super-telepath in my new, fledgeling galactic government."

It still irritates me, as you may notice.

Well, Sheridan knew just how powerful she was, and knew she was still influenced by subliminal Vorlon programming, and had been under Psi Corps' influence in the past -- perhaps long enough to set up artificial personalities like Talia's and Garibaldi's. So: certain influence from one sometimes-hostile power, possible influence from a certainly hostile power... she wasn't just a loaded gun waiting to go off, she was an armed nuke under uncertain control. I think he wanted her nearby (knowing he might be the only one who could control her) but at arm's length.

That said, his treatment of her bugged me too, not as out of character but as an unfortunate choice.

Also, bear in mind that his response to Garibaldi's erratic behavior at the beginning of Season Four didn't help that situation too much. Sheridan isn't the "Hey, Let's All Have Some Orange Juice" Smilin' Captain any more; he'd been to Z'ha'dum and come back. He was a man on a mission (and on the clock). He was much more of a no-nonsense, get-it-done kind of guy after Z'ha'dum. Look how he used the teepsicles. Carefully, and reluctantly -- but he used them. I think to him, Lyta, the Rangers, and perhaps everyone short of Delenn, were tools to be used, not much more.

dreamer said:

Wow. It's a good thing that CC did leave the show since her character would've been ruined complitely. Byron and Ivanova? *giggles*

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I have a tough time imagining "Dr. Raymond Stantz" (Dan Aykroyd's character from Ghostbusters), giggling. Looks like you've "crossed the streams" or thought of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

dreamer said:

I guess we all know where we stand on this telepath matter, but I think that even if Lyta might've felt the idea of belonging into this bunch somewhat tempting, I've always thought that she seems too smart a person to dive into this... cult. I have to admit that I actually expected her to turn around and say "look at yourselves", and walk away.

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I agree.

dreamer said:

Their routine is nuts and simply cannot end but in disaster

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Agreed.

dreamer said:

- I mean, hell, with Byron locked in prison his gang devolves into blooddrinking primitives and go on rampage.

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Without him there to moderate them.

dreamer said:

I think Zack should've puckered "because I like you", when Lyta asked if he could say anything to change her mind when she was so set on following Byron. Maybe it would've made her to stick around but it could've been used as some sort of nudge later on. I always think it was kind of sad how Zack didn't seem to have a lot going on because I liked the character a lot.

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More like "Because I like you, ,,,,no, ,,,,a helluva lot more than like you."

However, Zack didn't have the balls to do even that much. As I've said before, feckless. Lyta deserves more than that.

Then, when he finally does do it, tell her in the elevator (in "Thirdspace"), she's zoned out and he doesn't notice.

Robert Rusler is the first to come to my mind.

Although, I was surprised at how bad Bill Mumy's acting got in parts of season 5. I have never been able to decide if it was himself that was acting badly or he was receiving bad direction at the time.

KoshN said:

I have a tough time imagining "Dr. Raymond Stantz" (Dan Aykroyd's character from Ghostbusters), giggling.

Without him there to moderate them.

More like "Because I like you, ,,,,no, ,,,,a helluva lot more than like you."

However, Zack didn't have the balls to do even that much. As I've said before, feckless. Lyta deserves more than that.

Then, when he finally does do it, tell her in the elevator (in "Thirdspace"), she's zoned out and he doesn't notice.

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I have no trouble picturing Ray giggling over coffee with the other busters Aren't they like a big kids anyway?

Yeah, Byron was elsewhere, and while some did go bonkers some stayed and perhaps remembered Byron's teaching if they felt necessary to start lashing out. Hard to blame those that did go nuts when there were people coming to get them and B5 was the light at the end of the tunnel for them. Still, I suppose you could blame the actors or whatever, since some of the stuff that took place didn't really carry any feeling of desperation - more that of an rabid dog-like wrath with no regard to what they were actually doing. Maybe you could write that down on how everything that happened on B5 was the final excuse to let go.

Mindwalker said:

Although, I was surprised at how bad Bill Mumy's acting got in parts of season 5. I have never been able to decide if it was himself that was acting badly or he was receiving bad direction at the time.

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I've always figured that the change in him was a result of not being able to take anymore. I think it was pretty clear on how he contacted Minbar, ignoring to tell Delenn complitely beforehand. I can't imagine that he wouldt've guessed how Delenn would feel over this if he planned to just inform her just before leaving - I've been thinking if this is actually something that he did to sort of lash out because he knows it'll hurt her.

Mindwalker said:

Although, I was surprised at how bad Bill Mumy's acting got in parts of season 5. I have never been able to decide if it was himself that was acting badly or he was receiving bad direction at the time.

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Really? I didn't feel this way at all. I never thought he was the best actor on the show but I was never bothered by his performance either.

Elipsis said:

Really? I didn't feel this way at all. I never thought he was the best actor on the show but I was never bothered by his performance either.

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Yeah, me either. I always thought Bill Mumy ≡ Lennier, and that's all there was to it.

Re: Sheridan's treatment of Lyta

This comes up from time to time and people seem confused or disappointed by it, but I think you guys miss the most important aspect of it: Lyta the super-telepath is just weird and scary from the perspective of any non-telepath who doesn't know her personally. It's like if you meet someone famous or in jail or incredibly beautiful or blind or handicapped or of an ethnic background one isn't accustomed- most people are just not going to treat them the same as anybody else, which is really the way they want to be treated. Human nature is just like that- we recoil from that which is different and unknown. Lyta makes Sheridan personally uncomfortable.

The reason Zak's infatuation with Lyta works is because he can sympathize with her being an outsider, bounced around from home to home, especially after his experiences with Nightwatch. Ivanova could be comfortable with Lyta because she's a fellow non-Corps telepath; Delenn because any human is different enough from her that Lyta being a telepath doesn't necessarily make her scarier, and Minbari aren't scared of their own telepaths. Garibaldi had the same innate reaction to Lyta that Sheridan did.

Sheridan fully understood, rationally, that Lyta did the best she could, helped their cause, etc. But in order to actively think about and care about her personal well-being and feelings would require empathy, a quality impossible to have for someone who inspires fear and discomfort for other reasons.

GKarsEye said:

Re: Sheridan's treatment of Lyta

This comes up from time to time and people seem confused or disappointed by it, but I think you guys miss the most important aspect of it: Lyta the super-telepath is just weird and scary from the perspective of any non-telepath who doesn't know her personally.

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Sheridan knows her personally.

GKarsEye said:

Lyta makes Sheridan personally uncomfortable.

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There's no reason for that. Sheridan's been touched by the Vorlons, too. Hell, he even had a fragment of Kosh in him from Interludes and Examinations to Falling Toward Apotheosis, and he was closer to Kosh that anybody except Lyta.

GKarsEye said:

The reason Zak's infatuation with Lyta works is because he can sympathize with her being an outsider, bounced around from home to home, especially after his experiences with Nightwatch,

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...and because Lyta's gorgeous, intelligent and an genuinely nice person.

GKarsEye said:

Sheridan fully understood, rationally, that Lyta did the best she could, helped their cause, etc.

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"Helped their cause." That's putting it mildly. Prior to Epiphanies, Lyta:

• personally revealed sleeper Talia in Divided Loyalties, saving all of Sheridan's conspirators' butts
• did an illegal scan of the Centauri telepath for Sheridan in Passing Through Gethsemane revealing Brother Edward's killer,
• saved Sheridan's ass in Walkabout and helped him destroy a Shadow Battlecrab in the process, showing him that telepaths can be a weapon against the Shadows (which he used in Shadow Dancing),
• went with Ivanova, Delenn and Lennier to rescue Sheridan in Hour of the Wolf,
• in The Summoning, Lyta tries to scan Ulkesh for Delenn,
• in Falling Toward Apotheosis, Lyta draws Ulkesh out for Sheridan, and
• in Into the Fire is on the front lines of the battle, with Sheridan.

Subtract Lyta and they lose.

GKarsEye said:

But in order to actively think about and care about her personal well-being and feelings would require empathy, a quality impossible to have for someone who inspires fear and discomfort for other reasons.

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No, it would require caring about her as one of "his people." She may not have been officially one of his people in the rank structure, but she sure as hell was in deeds. That has to count for something. I know I would have felt obligated to help her when she was down and out.

Note: long rambling post, due to me waiting for my underlings at work to do my bidding...

Sheridan knows her personally.

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Well obviously, but not in that close way that allows one to overcome biases. There are people I've worked with for years who I just... don't like, and I'm sure people feel that way about me.

The only four people I think Sheridan felt that deep personal connection with is Delenn, obviously, Ivanova, Franklin and G'Kar.

Sheridan's been touched by the Vorlons, too. Hell, he even had a fragment of Kosh in him from Interludes and Examinations to Falling Toward Apotheosis, and he was closer to Kosh that anybody except Lyta.

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Kosh was an exceptional Vorlon. After Kosh's death, Sheridan came to hate the Vorlons- deservedly so! Blowing up planets and whatnot. Lyta also dealt with the other purple Vorlon, who was a real dick. No, he doesn't directly resent her for that and, like I said, rationally does not blame her.

My grandparents hate Germans because of Nazis. Rationally they understand that this was generations ago, and not all Germans were like that, etc and so forth. They don't go around yelling at people with German accents or anything, but they feel resentment. I'm only bringing this up to illustrate how one can rationally understand something and have it conflict with a guttural reaction.

and because Lyta's gorgeous, intelligent and an genuinely nice person.

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Then why didn't every male fall in love with her?

Where I'm coming from is- the vast majority of romantic relationships as portrayed in popular fiction are phoney. The reason for couples falling in love are simply because they're the male and female lead in the movie or whatever. When you see an actual couple in real life, you can "see" the bond between them- what values they share, what experiences led them to each other, how they compliment one another, etc. With TV/movie romances, it's just... he's the guy, she's the girl, the end.

One of the great and undervalued elements of B5 is the believability of its relationships. Sheridan and Delenn is the greatest space romance I've ever seen. Sheridan is a man who loves puzzles, mysteries, and understanding other ways of thinking, but is also a man of action. Here comes this almost-mystical creature, powerful yet vulnerable and just alien enough to capture his mind yet as bold in action as he. And from her perspective, embracing her new human side- Sheridan pretty much represents everything great about humanity as she sees it. When she explains to other Minbari why humans will control the fate of the galaxy, it is Sheridan that she thinks of.

I used to have a problem with Garibaldi and Lise Hampton because she's just such an unpleasant person and Garibaldi is this chill guy, but every addict I've known in a successful marriage has a ball-buster for a wife. Their relationship is very realistic. Well, from his perspective at least- Lise's history is a bit silly.

And I'm just saying that I find that same key value in Zak's infatuation w/ Lyta, as opposed to just "she's a cool chick" that explains every other TV romance.


Anyway, I'm not excusing Sheridan's behavior, here. I'm explaining it, from a character perspective. Big difference.

GKarsEye said:

Note: long rambling post, due to me waiting for my underlings at work to do my bidding...

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You sound like Darth Vader.

GKarsEye said:

Well obviously, but not in that close way that allows one to overcome biases. There are people I've worked with for years who I just... don't like, and I'm sure people feel that way about me.

The only four people I think Sheridan felt that deep personal connection with is Delenn, obviously, Ivanova, Franklin and G'Kar.

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Part of that, in relationship to Lyta, may have been her Psi Corps training and how she's used to maintaining a distance between herself and others, as others are used to maintaining a wary distance from teeps. However, since coming to the station as a non-Psi Corps teep, it seems to me that she's been trying to become more one of the crew, more of a normal person with normal relationships, like with Zack. It would have been nice if other people had responded in kind, but the Talia thing (possibility of a sleeper personality) plus her Vorlon ties, probably got in the way of that.

GKarsEye said:

Kosh was an exceptional Vorlon. After Kosh's death, Sheridan came to hate the Vorlons- deservedly so! Blowing up planets and whatnot. Lyta also dealt with the other purple Vorlon, who was a real dick. No, he doesn't directly resent her for that and, like I said, rationally does not blame her.

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True, but he knows how close she was to this exceptional Vorlon, Kosh, and how Kosh would have known if she was a bad apple.

GKarsEye said:

My grandparents hate Germans because of Nazis. Rationally they understand that this was generations ago, and not all Germans were like that, etc and so forth. They don't go around yelling at people with German accents or anything, but they feel resentment. I'm only bringing this up to illustrate how one can rationally understand something and have it conflict with a guttural reaction.

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Understandable.

GKarsEye said:

Then why didn't every male fall in love with her?

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Beats me! Zack, get the hell out of my way! Lyta want to scan me to be sure? Have at it!

GKarsEye said:

Where I'm coming from is- the vast majority of romantic relationships as portrayed in popular fiction are phoney. The reason for couples falling in love are simply because they're the male and female lead in the movie or whatever. When you see an actual couple in real life, you can "see" the bond between them- what values they share, what experiences led them to each other, how they compliment one another, etc. With TV/movie romances, it's just... he's the guy, she's the girl, the end.

One of the great and undervalued elements of B5 is the believability of its relationships. Sheridan and Delenn is the greatest space romance I've ever seen. Sheridan is a man who loves puzzles, mysteries, and understanding other ways of thinking, but is also a man of action. Here comes this almost-mystical creature, powerful yet vulnerable and just alien enough to capture his mind yet as bold in action as he. And from her perspective, embracing her new human side- Sheridan pretty much represents everything great about humanity as she sees it. When she explains to other Minbari why humans will control the fate of the galaxy, it is Sheridan that she thinks of.

I used to have a problem with Garibaldi and Lise Hampton because she's just such an unpleasant person and Garibaldi is this chill guy, but every addict I've known in a successful marriage has a ball-buster for a wife. Their relationship is very realistic. Well, from his perspective at least- Lise's history is a bit silly.

And I'm just saying that I find that same key value in Zak's infatuation w/ Lyta, as opposed to just "she's a cool chick" that explains every other TV romance.

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I agree with you on the Sheridan/Delenn and Garibaldi/Lise relationships, although I like the former and don't really care for the latter. Regarding Zack and Lyta, that one may be believable too, but I don't like it. Zack is just too unbearably feeble/feckless.

GKarsEye said:

Anyway, I'm not excusing Sheridan's behavior, here. I'm explaining it, from a character perspective. Big difference.

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I think he could have been closer to Lyta, maybe not one of his four closest friends, but closer than he was, and more considerate than he was. That last part seemed out of character for Sheridan, the inconsideration.

You sound like Darth Vader.

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Hey, the man made the Death Star run on time.

However, since coming to the station as a non-Psi Corps teep, it seems to me that she's been trying to become more one of the crew, more of a normal person with normal relationships, like with Zack. It would have been nice if other people had responded in kind, but the Talia thing (possibility of a sleeper personality) plus her Vorlon ties, probably got in the way of that.

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I think you're missing the whole Vorlon aspect here. Being ex-Psi-Corps is something that they could have really embraced her for, as they were doing for Talia.
Sheridan et al could at least sort of understand the Psi Corps, but having a Vorlon swim around inside you? That's just gotta be freaky.
Also, during all this Sherdian was fighting two epic wars and came back from the dead. Some of the details get skipped when your schedule is that... interesting.

Beats me! Zack, get the hell out of my way! Lyta want to scan me to be sure? Have at it!

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heh. I must be the only B5 fan who would take Talia first, though.

I agree with you on the Sheridan/Delenn and Garibaldi/Lise relationships, although I like the former and don't really care for the latter.

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Oh yeah, I don't like the latter either, just like I don't like the ball-busting gfs of addicts I know.
People talk about characters in TV as having to be "likeable." Well, I understand that one wants to be entertained and watch people they like, but the most interesting stories are the ones that convey truth, and there's no truth in stories where everyone is likeable.

Zack is just too unbearably feeble/feckless.

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Hey, I like Zack (speaking of likeable). He's the "regular guy." I dig that.

That last part seemed out of character for Sheridan, the inconsideration.

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Well the point KoshFan was making, and I agree with, is that Sheridan had to sacrifice a bit of his warmth and friendliness and consideration in order to accomplish the larger tasks.

GKarsEye said:

heh. I must be the only B5 fan who would take Talia first, though.

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There are probably others. I've always preferred redheads and brunettes (auburn to black), over blondes.

GKarsEye said:

Hey, I like Zack (speaking of likeable). He's the "regular guy." I dig that.

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Yeah, he's a regular guy, but he's a bit slow-witted and a lot of the time he acts way too spineless and tentative. Drives me nuts just watching him. My mind completes an instruction and then has to go through 1 billion No-Op cycles just to match speed with his.